Does the periphrastic pluperfect passive exist in Greek?

[Phoebus_Apollo]

For example, συνειλημμένοι ἦσαν - is this parsed as a pluperfect passive (they had been gathered) or just as a perfect participle + ἦσαν (they were gathered)
Thanks

[mwh]

There’s no difference.

[Phoebus_Apollo]

@mwh

There’s no difference.

Ah okay, so how would you parse it?

[jeidsath]

@Phoebus Apollo

@mwh

There’s no difference.

Ah okay, so how would you parse it?

Is it 2 + 3 that equals 5, or 3 + 2?

[Phoebus_Apollo]

@jeidsath

@Phoebus Apollo

@mwh

There’s no difference.

Ah okay, so how would you parse it?

Is it 2 + 3 that equals 5, or 3 + 2?

Hahaha What I’m saying is: you wouldn’t parse amatus est as ‘the perfect passive participle of amo + the 3rd sg present of sum’ - instead you would just say ‘the 3rd sg perfect passive indicative of amo’. But can the same be said for συνειλημμενοι ἠσαν, i.e. does the term pluperfect passive exist in Greek and do you label such a construction as ‘the pluperfect passive’.

[jeidsath]

Well, the pluperfect middle/passive certainly exists. The periphrastic form is for the third person plural of stems that end in a consonant or adding σ. It avoids the consonant followed by ντο that you’d otherwise see.

ἐλελύμην
ἐλέλυσο
ἐλέλυτο
ἐλελύμεθα
ἐλέλυσθε
ἐλέλυντο

But:

ἐπεπράγμην
ἐπέπραξω
ἐπέπρακτο
ἐπεπράγμεθα
ἐπέπραχθε
πεπραγμένοι ἦσαν

And so:

συνειλήμμην
συνείληψο
συνείληπτο
συνειλήμμεθα
συνείληφθε
συνειλημμένοι ἦσαν

[daivid]

The pluperfect in Ancient Greek is rare because in many of the cases where in English we use a past perfect merely to show that one thing happened before another, the Greeks used an aorist. The pluperfect was only used where the writer wished to emphasise that the results of the action were still current at some later past point in time.

[Phoebus_Apollo]

@jeidsath

Well, the pluperfect middle/passive certainly exists. The periphrastic form is for the third person plural of stems that end in a consonant or adding σ. It avoids the consonant followed by ντο that you’d otherwise see.

ἐλελύμην
ἐλέλυσο
ἐλέλυτο
ἐλελύμεθα
ἐλέλυσθε
ἐλέλυντο

But:

ἐπεπράγμην
ἐπέπραξω
ἐπέπρακτο
ἐπεπράγμεθα
ἐπέπραχθε
πεπραγμένοι ἦσαν

And so:

συνειλήμμην
συνείληψο
συνείληπτο
συνειλήμμεθα
συνείληφθε
συνειλημμένοι ἦσαν

Thank you very much

[Phoebus_Apollo]

@daivid

The pluperfect in Ancient Greek is rare because in many of the cases where in English we use a past perfect merely to show that one thing happened before another, the Greeks used an aorist. The pluperfect was only used where the writer wished to emphasise that the results of the action were still current at some later past point in time.

thanks