De Cap XXXV Familia Romana (Orberg) II

Latin Learning Latin
1

In Cap. XXXV Orberg Scripsit:

[M] Casus nominum quot sunt?

[D] Sex.

[M] Qui?

[D] Nominativus, genetivus, dativus, accusativus, vocativus, ablativus. Per HOS omnium generum nomina, pronomina, participia declinantur.

‘omnium generum’ neutrum est. Cur non scripsit Orberg ‘Per HAEC omnium generum nomina, pronomina…’?


2)

De Pronomine

[M] Pronomen quid est?

[D] Pars orationis quae pro nomine posita tantumdem paene significat personamque interdum recipit…

‘…personamque interdum recipit’

???

[M] What is a pronoun?

[D] A part of speech which stands in the place of a noun nearly always meaning the same thing and is sometimes taken to mean a person.

Cur ‘paene’…?

[M] Genera pronominum quae sunt?

[D] Eadem fere quae et nominum: masculinum, ut ‘quis’, femininum, ut ‘quae’ et nominum: masculinum, ut ‘quis’, feminum, ut ‘quae’, neutrum, ut ‘quod’, commune, ut ‘qualis’, ‘talis’, trium generum, ut ‘ego’, ‘tu’.


? Cur ‘fere’ - Adverbum est? ‘Generally’?

[M] What are the genders of pronouns?

[D] Generally the same as nouns:…

2

Per hos casus omnium generum &c

Hem… interdum, fortasse, in sententiis fixis (idioms) nihil valet pronomen? Nunc exempla non memini…

Mirum est. Fortasse fere scripsit quod desunt nomina trium generum :confused:

3

Felix substantivum et similia trium generum est

fere adverbium et “entirely/basically/just” anglicè significat.

4

Gratias vobis ago.

5

In [D] Eadem fere quae et nominum:

..is ‘quae’ a relative pronoun meaning ‘which’

so it means 'which is entirely the same as with [my translation of ‘et’ - Orberg says ‘et’ here means the same as ‘etiam which can mean ‘as with’.] the noun.’

6

Yes // Ita, "Entirely the same genders [genders implied // genera subaudita] that are [are implied // sunt verbum subauditum] also of nouns [/that also belong to nouns]

7

Gratias tibi ago Adriane

8

I am still having difficulty with two sentences in this section. I think I would find it helpful to have a translation or, at least, have some kind soul verify my translation.

l. 40 [a pronoun is] Pars orationis quae pro nomine posita tantundem paene significat personamque interdum recipit…
“It is the part of speech, put in place of a noun, which means almost the same thing and sometimes takes person…”
Why “almost the same thing”? A pronoun refers to the exact same person or thing, doesn’t it? And why would a pronoun “sometimes” take person. Do pronouns not always have person and number?

l. 43 Eadem fere quae et nominum: …
“Almost (or generally) the same which also of nouns” or less literally “Generally the same as nouns…” Why the qualification “generally”, if that is a good translation of fere? I would say that there are precisely four genders, according ot the authors explanation: masculine, feminine, neuter and common.

9

Hi Charlie

tantumdem could be taken as “just as much” . I think paene as a qualification does not imply there is a “small difference” in meaning but rather the opposite. It means they are practically the same thing. L&S give a meaning of “utterly, completely” quoting Plautus, which is of course very early compared to Donatus.

interdum also means “in the meantime” which makes more sense to me here.

l. 43 Eadem fere quae et nominum: …
“Almost (or generally) the same which also of nouns” or less literally “Generally the same as nouns…” Why the qualification “generally”, if that is a good translation of fere? I would say that there are precisely four genders, according ot the authors explanation: masculine, feminine, neuter and common.

L&S give a meaning for fere as follows: “With the idea of nearness or closeness predominant, quite, entirely, just”. Perhaps this is the sense here, rather than “generally”.

I read LLSPI quite quickly last year and didn’t think too closely about this chapter. It is not one of the more helpful chapters… If I have further thoughts I will post them.

10

Notice the “sup.” in the entry, and all the examples. This meaning occurs for the superlative form.

11

Thank you very much. I should have thought to chech in L&S.

12

Here’s Scotty on the same question in the 9th century.

EDIT: My understanding of this, in the hopes that someone who actually knows Latin can supply a decent translation.

But it’s also asked, why did Donatus say “PRONOMEN EST PARS ORATIONIS, QUAE PRO NOMINE POSITA TANTUNDEM PAENE SIGNIFICAT.” Why does he say “TANTUNDEM PAENE” instead of ‘completely tantundem’? Because it’s easy to see that the nomen makes known the creature and the pronomen is set in the place of the nominum of the creatures. Instead however he says only “TANTUNDEM PAENE” because the nomen does not need something supplied from another person, and in fact the pronomen is not capable of extension with -si or -ne in supplying another party. For the nomen awaits something extra from the supply of another person. The Pronomen though is not able to meaninglessly extend to another party. Or he says “PAENE” because a nomen makes the whole statement by itself, but a pronomen can’t without a preceding nomen. And a nomen signifies a general substantive, but a pronomen a personal substantive. “Homo” is a general substantive for all mankind. But when I say “ille homo”, see, I properly mean the substantive of a person, like “that man who is called Jesus.”

13

That was careless thanks.

14

If anyone wants to read the whole section it’s here. I think it probably means that interdum does mean “sometimes”. Its explained thus "Qualitas pronominum in quo est? Bipertita est: aut enim finita sunt pronomina aut infinita. Quae sunt finita? Quae recipiunt personas, ut ego tu ille. Quae sunt infinita? Quae non recipiunt personas, ut quis quae quod.

Pinkster is bad enough but there are diminishing returns in reading this stuff, I think.
De Pronomine

Pronomen quid est? Pars orationis, quae pro nomine posita tantundem paene significat personamque interdum recipit. Pronomini quot accidunt? Sex. Quae? Qualitas genus numerus figura persona casus. Qualitas pronominum in quo est? Bipertita est: aut enim finita sunt pronomina aut infinita. Quae sunt finita? Quae recipiunt personas, ut ego tu ille. Quae sunt infinita? Quae non recipiunt personas, ut quis quae quod. Genera pronominum quae sunt? Eadem fere quae et nominum: masculinum, ut quis, femininum, ut quae, neutrum, ut quod, commune, ut qualis talis, trium generum, ut ego tu. Numeri pronominum quot sunt? Duo. Qui? Singularis, ut hic, pluralis, ut hi. Figurae pronominum quot sunt? Duae. Quae? Simplex, ut quis, conposita, ut q usquis. Personae pronominum quot sunt? Tres. Quae? Prima, ut ego, seconda, ut tu, tertia, ut ille. Casus item pronominum quot sunt? Sex, quem ad modum et nominum, per quos omnium generum pronomina in flectuntur hoc modo. Ego pronomen finitum generis omnis numeri singularis figurae simplicis personae primae casus nominativi, quod declinabitur sic: ego mei vel mis mihi me a me, et pluraliter nos nostrum vel nostri nobis nos o a nobis: personae secondae generis omnis numen singularis tu tui vel tis tibi te o a te, et pluraliter vos vestrum vel vestri vobis vos o a vobis: personae tertiae generis masculini numeri singularis ille illius illi illum ab illo, et pluraliter illi illorum illis illos ab illis; generis feminini numeri singularis illa illius illi illam ab illa, et pluraliter illae illarum illis illas ab illis; generis neutri numeri singularis illud illius illi illud ab illo, et pluraliter illa illorum illis illa ab illis. Minus quam finita generis masculini numeri singularis ipse ipsius ipsi ipsum ab ipso, et pluraliter ipsi ipsorum ipsis ipsos ab ipsis; generis feminini numeri singularis ipsa ipsius ipsi ipsam ab ipsa, et pluraliter ipsae ipsarum ipsis ipsas ab ipsis; generis neutri numeri singularis ipsum ipsius ipsi ipsum ab ipso, et pluraliter ipsa ipsorum ipsis ipsa ab ipsis. Item minus quam finita generis masculini numeri singularis iste istius isti istum ab isto, et pluraliter isti istorum istis istos ab istis; generis feminini numeri singularis ista istius isti istam ab ista, et pluraliter istae istanum istis istas ab istis; generis neutri numeri singularis istud istius isti istud ab isto, et pluraliter ista istorum istis ista ab istis. Item articulare praepositivum vel demonstrativum generis masculini numeri singularis hic huius huic hunc o ab hoc, et pluraliter hi horum his hos o ab his; generis feminini numeri singularis haec huius huic hanc o ab hac, et pluraliter hae harum his has o ab his; generis neutri numeri singularis hoc huius huic hoc o ab hoc, et pluraliter haec horum his haec o ab his. item subiunctivum vel relativum generis masculini numeri singularis is eius ei eum ab eo, et pluraliter ei eorum eis eos ab eis; generis feminini numeri singularis ea eius ei eam ab ea, et pluraliter eae earum eis eas ab eis; generis neutri numeri singularis id eius ei id ab eo, et pluraliter ea eorum eis ea ab eis. item infinita generis masculini numeri singularis quis cuius cui quem a quo vel a qui, et pluraliter qui quorum quis vel quibus quos a quis vel a quibus; generis feminini numeri singularis quae cuius cui quam a qua vel a qui, et pluraliter quae quarum quis vel quibus quas a quis vel a quibus; generis neutri numeri singularis quod cuius cui quod a quo vel a qui, et pluraliter quae quorum quis vel quibus quae a quis vel a quibus. Item possessiva finita ad aliquid dicta ex utraque parte singularia generis masculini meus mei meo meum o a meo, et pluraliter ex altera parte mei meorum meis meos o a meis; generis feminini numeri singularis mea meae meae meam o a mea, et pluraliter meae mearum meis meas o a meis; generis neutri numeri singularis meum mei meo meum o a meo, et pluraliter mea meorum meis mea o a meis: personae secundae generis masculini numeri singularis tuus tui tuo tuum a tuo et pluraliter tui tuorum tuis tuos a tuis; generis feminini numeri singularis tua tuae tuae tuam a tua, et pluraliter tuae tuarum tuis tuas a tuis; generis neutri numeri singularis tuum tui tuo tuum a tuo, et pluraliter tua tuorum tuis tua a tuis: personae tertiae generis masculirli numeri singularis suus sui suo suum a suo, et pluraliter sui suorum suis suos a suis; generis feminini numeri singularis sua suae suae suam a sua, et pluraliter suae suarum suis suas a suis; generis neutri numeri singularis suum sui suo suum a suo, et pluraliter sua suorum suis sua a suis. item possessiva finita ad aliquid dicta ex altera parte pluralia generis masculini noster nostri nostro nostrum o a nostro, et pluraliter ex utraque parte nostri nostrorum nostris nostros o a nostris; generis feminini numeri singularis nostra nostrae nostrae nostram o a nostra, et pluraliter nostrae nostrarum nostris nostras o a nostris; generis neutri numeri singularis nostrum nostri nostro nostrum o a nostro, et pluraliter nostra nostrorum nostris nostra o a nostris: personae secundae generis masculini numeri singularis vester vestri vestro vestrum a vestro, et pluraliter vestri vestrorum vestris vestros a vestris generis feminini numeri singularis vestra vestrae vestrae vestrarn a vestra, et pluraliter vestrae vestrarum vestris vestras a vestris; generis neutri numeri singularis vestrum vestri vestro vestrum a vestro, et pluraliter vestra vestrorum vestris vestra a vestris. Da horum conposita. Egomet, tute, illic, istic, idem masculino genere productum, neutro correptum, quisquis, quisnam, quispiam aliquis et cetera.

15

Here it is with nice HTML formatting. It makes a difference, though he’s no Dionysius Thrax: https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/don.html

But this is real Latin about a subject that we’re always talking about here. And if you need a million or so words to get to fluency, give or take a few million, readily intelligible Latin like this gets you there. (Unlike Pinkster, which doesn’t move you forward an inch.)