Communicational grammar

That’s what I said in the first one. :slight_smile: If rather cryptically …

Especially for beginning students, pronouncing certain words can be quite difficult without this distinction. What does one do with > eiecerunt > on first sight?

-David

I would tend to agree, David. However, think about learning Italian; on first sight of seeing the word “famiglia,” with only English pronunciation to guide you, how would you know what that ‘gl’ was supposed to sound like? Or simply “guarda,” which looks like our “guard”? yet also has that essential ‘w’ sound after the ‘g’. Or even the word “piuttosto”; what’s to stop the unknowning student from saying “pee-oo-toe-stoe” rather than “pyut-tos-to”?

It is the teacher’s duty to instruct the student’s pronunciation by expressing correct pronunciation himself. Many “phonetic” spelling conventions, while well-meaning, tend to miss the point. And I believe this random ‘v’-ness may be included among their number.

As for your example, the professor must needs pronounce the word “eiecerunt” first, and make sure the student has it right before moving on. As with all the words.

Salue, Amadiue. Esne Hispanus, amice? Are you Spanish, my friend?
I understand what your book is describing. It’s putting forth the Spanish common pronunciation of Latin. Every nation has adopted a certain endemic pronunciation for Latin, such as German Latin, French Latin, English Latin, Italian Latin, Church Latin, Russian Latin, etcetera.
That your books mentions a double ‘i’, “ii”, as a possible pronunciation for Latin consonantal ‘i’ is very interesting; in older classical Latin, the Romans themselves in fact used a double ‘i’ of the same nature to express this sound, as we can see from numerous older inscriptions, though this convention later died out. However, rather than double ‘i’, double ‘l’ would likely be the better Spanish means of expressing the sound, or even better simply a ‘y’, as in English.

As for your bottom line, it depends what kind of cake you are simultaneously having and eating. That most Europeans have adopted the ‘v’ for consonantal ‘u’ in the recent age does not mean it is correct. It is merely conventional. Therefore, it depends which road you wish to take (and you can of couse always change that road whenever you want, even from person to person): to pronounce as the Romans did, and honor their words with their tongue, or pronounce as others around you do, in order to fit in. Conformity is an important thing. We all do it, just to get through daily life, and a life of yours, should it be in the Church, may very well depend upon comforming your manner of Latin elocution. Nevertheless, the true bottom line, in my opinion, is to choose the high road, to choose wisdom over ignorance. I find the easy way out leads nowhere but to disappointment. Even to a disappointment unseen. As being fellow men of faith, you may understand what I mean by this.

I wish to add a comment regarding the “random” nature of this “‘v’-ness”:

suavis is how most books spell the word. Yet that first ‘u’ is not an individual syllable, as we learn by scanning Latin poetry, but a consonantal ‘u’. That is, a ‘v’, by modern standards. How come it is not written svavis in modern texts? Merely to immitate the spelling of the cognate in modern tongues? O factum male, dico.

Sum Mexicanus. :smiley:

Ah, vale.

I can see benifets in both orthographies. I just don’t like the way ‘j’ looks in Latin… And as Mr. Donelly said, Wheelocks doesn’t use them, so I feel more comfortable when not using them. I think, however, that a beginning student should learn to read both kind of orthographies with relative comfort, so they are prepared to encounter different spellings. The ‘Roman’ way, the ‘j/v’ way, and a mix between the two (i.e. the Wheelock’s way.).
Speaking of Wheelock’s… In the listing for Deus, it gives the voc. sing. form as being identical to the nominative.

Valete

Consentio.

I wouldn’t trust Wheelock with a ten-foot hasta.

Salve Luce,

You mentioned the inconsistent representation of consonantal u in “suavis.” I’d like to add “quamvis” to this dishonorable list - as well as any textbook (Wheelock, Moreland & Fleischer, etc) that uses both v and qu. This tendency has always baffled and irked me, and it does seem that the reason you mention, cowing to cognates, explains it.

David

In fact I was about to mention that myself, David. Near as I can figure, the desire for “v” along with “qu” is merely to convey the spellings in later cognates, for the consonantal ‘u’ of “qu” does not change in modern languages (excepting German, where it becomes a ‘v’). Fortunately, the “rule” is that ‘q’ always goes with ‘u’ anyway, and always makes a “kw” sound. Simple enough. Even simpler would just be to adopt the Roman spellings and do away with ‘v’ entirely.