Colloquia Personarum -- chap 18 -- another translation question

Latin Learning Latin
1

Hello again – yet another question about the proper translation:

Chap 18 of Colloquia Personarum, there are two things: I’m using the second edition.

Page 49, where Marcus asks Sextus: “Itane matrem tuam vereris, Sexte?” After Sextus says that he can’t go with him because his mother is at home waiting for him. I’m confused about what “Itane” means here. “Ita,” I think, means “so”, or “in such a way,” according to the definition in the book, as well as the companion that I bought by Jean Neumann.

Does the sentence mean “So in that way you fear your mother?” That doesn’t seem to make sense. Or is it more obvious that it means “So you’re afraid of your mother?” Is Marcus just being a jerk with this question? Maybe it’s the -ne particle that throws me off.

The other one is page 51, when the two are fighting and Marcus says to Sextus “Atque ego id ipsum ‘matrem meam pulchriorem esse’ dico,” and a few lines down when he says "Iam ipse dicis ‘matrem meam pulchriorem esse’ ".

Not sure how to translate “ipsum” and “ipse” here. The first is in the accusative, the second in the nomiative.

The book defines it as “himself” or “itself.” But that sounds kind of weird in translation. Or can it mean “I’m saying just that – my mother is more beautiful than yours.”

Boy, Marcus is a real smart-alec; improbus puer :slight_smile:

2

Who else agrees with this interpetation:

Re: the sentence "“Itane matrem tuam vereris, Sexte?”, could it mean “Do you fear your mother that much, Sextus?” where “ita” = “that much”? In the sense of “are you really that afraid…?”

Re: “Atque ego id ipsum ‘matrem meam pulchriorem esse’ dico,”, Could “id ipsum” mean “this very thing”.
re: “Iam ipse dicis ‘matrem meam pulchriorem esse’ " Could “ipse dicis” mean"you yourself say”.

3

looking at the two sentences again, what does “id” mean here, if it means something other than ‘that’ (3rd person sing neuter, right?) what case is it? Accusative?

4

looking at the two sentences again, what does “id” mean here, if it means something other than ‘that’ (3rd person sing neuter, right?) what case is it? Accusative?

My apologies – I accidentally posted this twice but don’t seem to know how to delete it.

5

Here is how l parse the sentence:

ego = subject of dico.
id = accusative case; direct object of dico.
ipsum = emphatic pronoun modifying id.
“matrem meam pulchram esse” = accusitive and infinitive construction dependent upon dico; in apposition to id.
matrem meam = subject of esse.

6

So how would one translate “ipsum” here? Does the sentence say “And I’m saying exactly that” (or “that itself”?), “my mother is more beautiful?”

It’s a bit confusing because the book only translates ipsum as “himself/herself/itself.”

7

Per Allen and Greenough’s New Latin Grammar, section 298c,

“id ipsum = that very thing.”