about the way you find verbs in the dictionary

Greek Learning Greek
21

Lex,

you wrote:
I found a used copy of his Reverse English/Greek NT that does, anyway, but you probably wouldn’t want the Reverse one.

I have heard about the reverse dictionary from a Japanese pastor,
who was teaching Greek in his blog last year.
He recommended the use of Analytical and Concordance to the learners of bible Greek.
He says learners of Greek only have to memorize the minimum grammar,
and after memorizing it, at once they can start to read New Testament with the help of dictionary and Analytical.
After it, all they have to do is continue reading, The more they read, the more experienced they will become.

22

thesaurus, sorry, I wrote too long…

I wrote:
I also want to read Plotinus, whose books’ translations are so incoherent that I can’t understand at all.
My ambition is to make coherent, understandable, readable translations of those philosophers.



You wrote:
What is the state of the translation of the classics and philosophy into Japanese?

In both Japanese and English, translations of philosophy (and of classical literature, I think, though I have read few of them) are often literal, word-by-word translations,
and they are very very awkward.
And not only each sentence is awkward,
but the translation of conjunctions are unreasonable and false,
and each sentences are so translated that the whole text is utterly incoherent.
So the readers don’t understand the meaning at all.

Once, when I didn’t know Latin and was reading only translations, I met with that difficulty.
But I thought the reason I didn’t understand the texts was
because the older texts were formerly written that (apparently incoherent) way, and the logic of the ancients and the medievals might be different from my age’s,
or because I was too fool to understand philosophical writings.

Then after I learned Latin and began to read the old texts myself,
I found those texts were in fact coherent and understandable.
The texts I have seen are not so many,
but I can believe all the ancient texts are written with the same, understandable logic as our age’s, and really coherent.
So I know now that the bad one was the translators.





You wrote,
If you don’t mind me asking, are you referring more to Japanese or English translations that you want to improve on?

I’m translating in Japanese.
But I’m maybe ready to translate in English.
Only, I’m still unskilled in English, with minimum vocabulary,
though in philosophy translation you don’t need much vocabulary, it’s the custom to use the simplest words.





You wrote:
Are many Japanese interested in Latin or Greek, or Western literature/philosophy/medieval era?

I don’t think so.
And students majoring in philosophy like me are considered odd persons.

23

Essorant,

you wrote:
Even after studying Greek for quite a time I still find moments of ignorance or forgetfulness, therefore I ended up buying that little book. Whenever I use it is as helpful

then, I will use it from now on.
When even the experienced people use it, why don’t I ?
Why I didn’t use the Marinone?
It’s because I am a little ascetic. I have abstained from the Marinone.

24

Hi, edonnelly, paulusnb,

thank you for such great tools. :smiley:
I want to get a notebook computer to make a full use of Diogenes !

25

I wasn’t referring to a reverse dictionary, but a reverse interlinear English/Greek New Testament. The English text is the main text. The Greek text, with word order re-arranged to match the English translation, is in between the English lines. This is the reverse of the ordinary interlinear, which has the Greek text in the original order and the English words re-arranged to match the Greek. This is OK for studying words, but not for learning the subtleties of Greek word ordering.

Anyway, I don’t think this is for a serious student of Koine Greek. The ordinary Greek/English interlinear, with morphological information and concordance numbers, like this, would be better. This is an example.

26

Lex,

my interlinear doesn’t have the concordance numbers and morphological information.
I read it searching for the type of inflection of verbs (and nouns) by grammar book charts and dictionary, with the help of interlinear English translation.

The Zondervan one you recommend seems better, and would make my learning easier.

Do you think the easier the better also in studying?
I myself am beginning to think so,
though I had wrongly thought from childhood the more you make effort with pain the more efficiently you grow.

27

Well… I’m not sure I’m the best person to ask, because I’m not very good at any foreign language, but I’ll answer as best I can. The attitude towards pain that you described is (I think) a very typical Japanese attitude, and it may build stronger character, but I’m not sure it will help you learn Greek faster. For example, with looking up words, it depends on whether going through the pain of puzzling out the lexical form of a word helps you memorize it, its meaning, its conjugational ending, etc. If so, then maybe the pain is worth it.

For me, it doesn’t help memorization. For me, “repetitio est mater memoriae”. I have my computer set up so I can switch between English and Greek keyboards easily. Then, as I do the exercises in the textbook I am using, I copy all the vocabulary to word lists in text files, one file for verbs, one file for nouns, etc. Then, for example, I make a copy of the verb file, and in that copied file I conjugate every verb with every tense that I currently know. This is repetitious and boring, but I think it helps a lot with my conjugations.

Another thing that helps me is using index cards as flash cards. I know, it sounds childish, but it helps. For instance, with verbs, I put the lexical form on the blank side. Then I put the English translation on the other side, on the first line, and then all the principal parts I know, one per line. When I learn more principal parts, I add them to the cards.

(PS I still think it’s good to know how to find the lexical form of a word in Greek. I’m just not sure that puzzling out every word is the most efficient use of your time.)

28

Reading an interlinear is easier than reading Greek text without an interlinear but it is not as effective. IMO you will be doing better reading the Greek with a translation beside you instead of having every word translated for you right below it.
When using an interlinear it is too easy to glance at the English word without even trying to understand Greek.

29

Bert, this guy has a copy of Marinone’s All The Greek Verbs, but has never used it because didn’t want to feel like he was cheating!

Besides, all you have to do to avoid cheating with an interlinear is cover up everything below the line you are reading with a piece of paper.

30

Lex, thank you very much for a studying tip.

you wrote:
The attitude towards pain that you described is (I think) a very typical Japanese attitude,

Yes, you are correct.
It’s very typical among Japanese to think that the harder and with more pain you endeavor, the steadier you will grow.
I hate this thought now, because it’s very bad for health.
You can never keep a thing on for a long time with this thought, for it’s too painful = unhealthy.




So, you think it’s more efficient and a light work to separate the study for word memorizing from the study for reading.

But, I presently don’t intend to memorize the meanings and forms of words at all.
Because I have very very poor memory.
I forget as soon as I see.
I can’t hope but that the meanings of words by themselves automatically may sit in my mind.
But I also think that as I keep studying for a long time and as the time goes on, a lot of necessary words will automatically take root in my mind.

So, what I wanted to get in this post is the tip of hunting down in the dictionary in an as-easy-as-possible manner all the verbs I encounter on texts.
And it turned out that experienced people also use Perseus and Marinone other than the grammar chart and the Intermediate dictionary.

31

Bert,

you wrote
you will be doing better reading the Greek with a translation beside you instead of having every word translated for you right below it.
When using an interlinear it is too easy … without even trying to understand Greek.

Yes, I like to study reading with a translation, not with an interlinear.
I did it in Latin study (because there is no interlinear thing in Latin).

32

There are two side to this Japanese attitude. One side is perserverance and work ethic. These are good things, and I don’t think you have any problems in this area.

The other side is doing things the hard way, just because it’s the hard way. This is just a waste of your time, and therefore, your life. I once read this story. I forget where I read it, so I may misremember it or embellish it, but I think you’ll understand the idea:

There was once a martial arts master who, after practicing for 20 years, mastered the art of walking on water. He was very proud of himself, and so went to his teacher, a very old and revered master who he hadn’t seen since he became a master himself, to show him what he could do. The old teacher lived in a shack next to a river, so the master walked across the river so that his old teacher could see him. He said, “Teacher, what do you think of my new technique? It took 20 years to learn, but I’ve finally mastered it!” His teacher said, “You spent 20 years learning to walk on water, so you could finally cross the river and visit your poor old teacher again? Hmmph! You could have paid the ferryman a few pennies and accomplished the same thing!”


It is easier for me. But if my suggestions don’t work for you, please ignore them. My main point is, don’t waste your time doing things the hard way. Figure out what your main goal is. Is it to learn to read Greek? Or do you only care about making good translations of certain philosophical books, and you don’t care if you forget the Greek afterwards? Then use the tools that are available to achieve your goal without wasting years of your life.

33

Lex,

your insight is great about the Japanese character of mind.

:laughing: I understand and agree with the martial arts master story.

you wrote:
My main point is, don’t waste your time doing things the hard way. Figure out what your main goal is.

Yes, I think so too.
And I think, as the martial arts master story tells, it’s the same if you reach the goal whether though the harder way or through the easier way.
(So now I understand that, if I easily learn Greek using the Marinone and Perseus, or if I learn Greek taking great pain all alone without them, it’s the same,
and the latter way consumes and damages my health more and takes more time from my life.)
I am still, from habit, wont to fall into the hard way, though (like abstaining from the Marinone and, to tell the truth, from Perseus too).

And, I’m a little unstable in keeping the eye on my goal.
My goal is make good translations of philosophical texts, but I also want to be the true master of Greek who can also read and translate other things than philosophy. (So in Latin too, and for that reason, I cannot confine myself only to philosophical Latin texts, but I try to read other things, to become a master of Lain…)
Yes, for now, I should train myself for reading and translating the philosophical stuff only.



Thank you for a lot of advices ! I could have a reflection on myself with your word.

34

I am not discouraging an interlinear because it is too easy but because it is not very effective.

35

The first reading-text I used was an interlinear edition of Anabasis and found it very effective for me at the time. It helps one see the language at work through long and continuous reading where he/she is also shown how to deal with every word individually, so that he/she learns how to interpret the manners of the language and establish a good reading method by seeing the technique that the interlinear translation uses. From following the technique of the interlinear translation one learns better how to have a technique in the first place, from which one may then use and build upon that technique more independantly.

36

It is also common among Anglo-American academic classicists of a certain generation.

I had a temper tantrum on my blog about this a while ago, when some classics bloggers tried to find the silver lining behind the Perseus web site being brought down by security problems, by saying we should sometimes study without these tools. This is madness.

Listen, we should use every single tool we can get our hands on. Before I had internet access and these wonderful tools, I spent probably months of my life on pointless toil paging through dictionaries. If you spend a half hour with dictionary and grammar trying to hunt down a verb, and then you just make a margin note in your text, or then just move on without any extra work, it’s no better than using Perseus, Diogenes or one of those verb books. Use the tool, then spend the time you saved trying to find an irregular form of a verb you may never have seen before instead learning what you can about the word.

Some people like flash cards, but I have a bunch of little notebooks filled with vocabulary and grammar notes. I carry one with me almost always, because you never know when you’ll have a few minutes to look over some words. Every time you use a tool to help you find a word, copy that word, and maybe some extra notes on it, into your notebook (or whatever). Use the verb book, but write out all the principle parts, and spend 5 minutes looking at the full L&S article Perseus or Diogenes gives you to learn some of the main ways the word is used. See if your grammar has something to say about oddities in its principal parts that might help you recognize similarly irregular verbs in the future.

All of these student helps are great so long as you use them as a starting point for deeper study rather than an end in themselves.

37

Ah shucks! All this flattery would give me an inflated ego, if I didn’t already have one. :wink: :unamused:

Seriously, though, I spent a year in Japan in my youth. The main thing I learned about the Japanese is that there is some truth to the Western stereotype of Asians as “inscrutable”. But I did learn a little.

If that is your current goal, maybe you should set aside the New Testament and start translating [Peri Psyche^s] right away. I would bet money that the words and terms that Aristotle uses are also used often in the commentators that you want to translate; the words and terms in the New Testament maybe not so much. So maybe the most efficient use of your time would be to master the common words and grammatical constructs in [Peri Psyche^s] using Perseus, Diogenes, etc., in addition to your dictionary.

38

Bert,

you wrote:
I am not discouraging an interlinear because it is too easy but because it is not very effective.

I also use such books and web sites where you can read the Greek text on the left, the English translation on the right, like Nicomachean Ethics with Ross’ translation.
There I can think of better reading by making use of the translation given.

I am also trying reading Greek texts by myself alone.

I do the interlinear-reading, or the translation-attached-text-reading when I don’t feel I have enough vigor.
When I am vigorous, I read the original text with no attached-translation.

39

Essorant,

I use the interlinear with just the same intention as yours.

40

annis,

you wrote:
some classics bloggers tried to find the silver lining behind the Perseus web site being brought down by security problems, by saying we should sometimes study without these tools. This is madness.

I decide to throw away that ascetic attitude.
I decide to use every tool I can put my hands on !




you wrote:
Some people like flash cards, but I have a bunch of little notebooks filled with vocabulary and grammar notes.

To tell the truth, I have never spent time on word memorizing, even from junior high when I started to study English.
Maybe that’s the reason I have a very poor vocabulary.
For that reason, I am a little reluctant to start word study, … but flash card use, or notebook use, anyway I would have to start !