usage of "te"

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vir litterarum
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usage of "te"

Post by vir litterarum » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:07 pm

μη̂νιν* ἀ?ειδε* θεὰ Πηληϊα?δεω* ̓Αχιλη̂ος**
οὐλομε?νην***, ἣ μυ?ι?'* ̓Αχαιοι̂ς* ἀ?λγε'* ἐ?θηκε,
πολλὰς δ' ἰφθι?μους** ψυχὰς ̓?Αϊδι*** π?οι?̈αψεν
ἡ?ω?ων*, αὐτοὺς δὲ ἑλω??ια* τευ̂χε** κυ?νεσσιν**
οἰωνοι̂σι*? τε πα̂σι*, Διὸς δ' ἐτελει?ετο** βουλη?**
Iliad 1.1-5

Is "te" here only coordinating "kunessin" with "oiwnoisin," or is it coordinating
"elwria" with "daita"?

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Re: usage of "te"

Post by perispomenon » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:28 pm



Bert
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Re: usage of "te"

Post by Bert » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:58 pm

perispomenon wrote:
You mean 'pasi' instead of ' daita', I suppose?
that depends on whose copy you read.

vir litterarum
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Post by vir litterarum » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:51 pm

Sorry I am using a different text than Perseus project does. I cannot find one to copy and paste from, so, assuming "daita" were in "pasi" place, would the "te" connect "elwria" and "daita" or just " kunessin" and "oiwnoisin"?

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Post by modus.irrealis » Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:44 am

With δαῖτα, I think it's impossible for τε to be coordinating κ?νεσσιν and οἰωνοῖσι, since that would leave δαῖτα with nothing to do. To bracket things, you would have

α?τοὺς ἑλώ?ια τεῦχε (κ?νεσσιν οἰωνοῖσί τε) δαῖτα

and then you'd have three accusative for τεῦχε and it's unclear what role δαῖτα is playing. But if you bracket it as (and rearranging the words to make the bracketing possible)

α?τοὺς τεῦχε [(ἑλώ?ια κ?νεσσιν) (οἰωνοῖσί τε δαῖτα)]

it makes perfect sense (at least if my bracket thing makes any sense at all). So I would say it coordinates οἰωνοίσι δαῖτα with ἑλώ?ια κ?νεσσιν.

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Post by vir litterarum » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:31 am

I agree that that is a possibility, but, if that is the case, why is "te" not placed after "daita," and couldn't "daita" along with κ?νεσσιν and οἰωνοῖσι be in apposition with "elwria", i.e. " ...made the men themselves prey, a feast for dogs and birds."?

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Post by modus.irrealis » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:27 am

If τε coordinates οἰωνοῖσι δαῖτα with κ?νεσσι ἑλώ?ια, it has to go after οἰωνοῖσι because it regularly stands in second position of whatever it's coordinating.

I never thought of the apposition idea, but as far as I can tell, it's possible and makes good sense. I guess it would be unambiguous when spoken (or sung), but obviously we don't have access to that. The only thing I can think of is to wonder whether the line-end suggests that κ?νεσσιν goes with what comes before instead of the next line -- that's probably why I analyzed it the way I did, because I have a tendency to read in terms of lines -- but I don't know enough to say what usually happens in Homer in these circumstances.

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Post by jk0592 » Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:54 pm

There is a pdf file "Iliad A notes" by C. Bochan, containing parsed Iliad A scholia. You will find there a comment on this specific example.

It is mentioned there that according to a great specialist on Greek particles, namely Dennison, in his work "The Greek Particles" (as i can infer) this would be an "example of a single te connecting two words", and that this te "follows the second word".

Hoping this is some help to you.
Last edited by jk0592 on Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Tertius Robertus » Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:03 am

the link is www dot freewebs dot com slash mhninaeide slash

for some weird reason the server does not allow the link to be posted directly

just in case someone is wondering....

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Post by jk0592 » Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:35 am

Inserting the actual link also caused me many headaches, that is why I posted the information that could be "googled". Sometimes I do not understand the fancy technology which permits such great information exchange.

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Post by vir litterarum » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:13 am

Do you know if Dennison is using the text with "pasi" or the text with "daita"? If he is using "pasi," it is easy to understand how "te" is functioning. I was just not aware that "te" still held the second position when it is connecting one direct and indirect object with another direct and indirect object.

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Post by jk0592 » Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:49 am

I have no access to the book by Dennison. But the text being analyzed by Bochan, in which the specific reference to Dennison is made, uses "pasi", not "daita".

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Post by annis » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:24 pm

vir litterarum wrote:I was just not aware that "te" still held the second position when it is connecting one direct and indirect object with another direct and indirect object.
If you take the reading δαῖτα, I would think of τε in this line as joining clauses, which here has elided the verb τεῦχε.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by vir litterarum » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:27 pm

where would "te" be placed if one merely wanted to coordinate "kunessin" and "oiwnoisin"?

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Post by annis » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:19 pm

vir litterarum wrote:where would "te" be placed if one merely wanted to coordinate "kunessin" and "oiwnoisin"?
κύνεσσιν οἰωνοῖσί τε.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by vir litterarum » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:23 am

but that is the word order.

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Post by jk0592 » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:37 am

Interestingly, Pharr in his Homeric Greek, does use the "daita" version of Iliad A, line 5, not the "pasi". As faras I can see, no special discussion in Pharr accompany the use of "te" before "daita".

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Post by annis » Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:19 pm


William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by Helma » Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:30 pm



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