Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

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Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by njmolinari »

Hello friends,

This is an interesting account of the birth of the Sirens, who according to Libanos emerged from the earth after it was soaked in the blood from Acheloios' broken horn!

Ἀχ 245. Libanos’ account of the tale of Acheloios, Herakles, and Deianeira, in which case Oineus sets up a battle between the two. Additionally, in this account the Sirens are born from the blood of Acheloios’ broken horn—a novel idea.

Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Περὶ Δηιανείρας.
Δηιάνειραν τὴν Οἰνέως ἐβούλετο μὲν γαμεῖν Ἡρα-
κλῆς, εἶχε δὲ καὶ τὸν ποταμὸν Ἀχελῷον ἔρως τῆς
κόρης. ὁ δὲ ἀμφοτέρους δεδοικὼς οὐδετέρῳ χαρίζεται.
στήσας οὖν ἆθλον τὴν θυγατέρα διαγωνίζεσθαι ἐκέλευε.
καὶ Ἡρακλῆς ἐνίκα παλαίων τὸ κέρας ἀνασπάσας τοῦ
ποταμοῦ. καὶ τὸ αἷμα ἔρρει καὶ ἡ Γῆ τοῦτο ἐδέχετο,
ἀφ’ οὗ Σειρῆνες γίνονται.

Molinari:

On Deianeira.
Deianeira, the daughter of Oineus, longed to marry Herakles, but the river Acheloios had desire for the girl. But he (Oineus) neither favors nor fears either [of them]. And so he was ordering a competition established with his daughter as the prize. And Heracles won by plucking off the horn of the river. Blood flowed and the earth accepted it, from which the Sirens were born.

Themata: Cornucopia; Deianeira; Herakles; Lineage; Oineus; Wrestling; Sirens

Any help is very much appreciated.
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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by seneca2008 »

What cases are Δηιάνειραν and Ἡρακλῆς?

Before translating anything its best to understand the grammar...
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by njmolinari »

I figured Δηιάνειραν was a third declension nominative that I didn't know...but looking again, it appears Herakles is the nominative and Δηιάνειραν the accusative, which would alter the translation to start like this:

Herakles longed to marry Deianeira, the daughter of Oineus....
Last edited by njmolinari on Sat May 20, 2023 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by jeidsath »

Fun word play in this one.

Regarding Deianeira.

Herakles wanted to marry Oineus' daughter Deianeira and love for the girl also grasped the river Acheloios. But Oineus, in fear of both, was not obliging either one. So what happened was, having set up a contest, he told the girl to judge it. And Herakles was victorious at wrestling, having drawn [1] the river's horn [2]. And the vital fluid flowed, and this Gaia accepted, from which come Sirens [3].

[1] Draw, as in draw water from a well, or draw, as in pull a tooth
[2] A waterway, or a horn like a bull's
[3] Seirenes, "the drainings"
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by njmolinari »

That is beautiful--thank you. The word play really is terrific!
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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by jeidsath »

"The dryings up" or "the parchings" might be better for the Seirenes.

The LSJ appears to have a different read than I do of Theon's commentary on Republic X for its "σειριάζω" entry, which it glosses as "sparkle, twinkle."
ταῦτα μὲν οὖν καὶ ὁ Πλάτων· ὧν τὴν ἐξήγησιν ἐν τοῖς τῆς Πολιτείας ποιούμεθα ὑπομνήμασιν. κατεσκεύασται δ’ ἡμῖν καὶ σφαιροποιία κατὰ τὰ εἰρημένα· καὶ γὰρ αὐτός φησιν ὁ Πλάτων ὅτι τὸ ἄνευ τῶν δι’ ὄψεως μιμημάτων [τῶν] τὰ τοιαῦτα ἐθέλειν ἐκδιδάσκειν μάταιος πόνος. ἐπὶ δὲ τῶν κύκλων <ἅς> φησιν ἐφεστάναι Σειρῆνας οἱ μὲν αὐτούς <φασι> λέγεσθαι τοὺς πλάνητας, ἀπὸ τοῦ σειριάζειν· κοινῶς τε γάρ, φησὶν ὁ Ἄδραστος, πάντας τοὺς ἀστέρας οἱ ποιηταὶ σειρίους καλοῦσιν, ὡς Ἴβυκος

φλεγέθων, ᾇπερ διὰ νύκτα μακρὰν σείρια παμφανόωντα,

καὶ κατὰ διαφορὰν ἔνιοι τοὺς λαμπροὺς καὶ ἐπιφανεῖς, ὡς Ἄρατος τὸν τοῦ κυνὸς ὀξέα σειριᾶν φησι, καὶ ὁ τραγικὸς ἐπί τινος τῶν πλανήτων·

τί ποτ’ ἄρα ὁ ἀστὴρ ὅδε πορθμεύει σείριος;

ἔνιοι δὲ Σειρῆνας οὐ τοὺς ἀστέρας λέγεσθαί φασιν, ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὸ Πυθαγορικὸν τοὺς ὑπὸ τῆς τούτων φορᾶς γινομένους ἤχους καὶ φθόγγους ἡρμοσμένους καὶ συμφώνους, ἐξ ὧν μίαν ἡρμοσμένην ἀποτελεῖσθαι φωνήν.
My trans.
Plato also says these things, of which we consider the explanation in the Republic a commentary. There have even been [heavenly] spheres made for us according to what is said. For Plato himself also says that without the imitation of vision, the wish to teach these things is a vain work. Upon the circles are what he says are Sirens standing. Some say they signify the planets from σειριάζειν [parching], for together with the planets, says Adrastos, the poets call all the stars σειρίους [parching/blazing], as Ibykos:

Blazing, those that through the long night are shining and σείρια [parching/blazing]

And according to distinction of some in brightness and fame, as Aratos says a man of Sirius sharply σειριᾶν [blazes/burns hot], and the tragic author about one of the planets:

Why ever does this scorching [σείριος] star destroy?

But some say that Sirens are not signifying the stars, but, according to the Pythagorean, those coming under [born under?] the tendency of these, harmonizing sound and voice and speaking together, from which a single harmonious voice comes complete.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by mwh »

Joel is amusing himself, but not very responsibly. This is the first time I’ve ever seen αἷμα mistranslated as “vital fluid” (shades of Dr Strangelove).

And he misunderstands much of Theon's Republic commentary that he goes on to irrelevantly cite.

And it’s Libanios not Libanos, for crying out loud.

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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by jeidsath »

This inexhaustible and unhelpful choler, Michael.

Rivers don't have blood, they have water. I tried to maintain the author's play here and your critique doesn't even try to engage.

The Theon cite is made for the stated reason. The LSJ mentions it for the only source of σειριάζειν, a supposed etymology of Siren.

My translation of Theon certainly has issues. I made some guesses, and I hope that they're engaged with. Perhaps you've noticed something that I got wrong. Post the Loeb for us, if you'd like.
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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by njmolinari »

I don't know where I got Libanos--presumably an initial typo that I continued to copy.
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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by mwh »

Rivers don’t have blood, you tell me. But when the text says the blood flowed (τὸ αἷμα ἔρρει), you have no business saying otherwise. It’s the worst kind of rationalization.

Theon has no bearing on the datum concerning the origin of the Sirens, which has nothing to do with etymology. (At least you amended your “drainings.”)

And then you invite me to post the Loeb. You are better than this, Joel.

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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by njmolinari »

Libanios has another excerpt that might shed additional light:

Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.31.1.1-7 (ed. Foerster)

Δηιάνειραν τὴν Οἰνέως ἐπόθει μὲν Ἡρακλῆς, ἀντεπόθει δὲ καὶ Ἀχελῷος ὁ ποταμός. εἰς ἔριν δὲ καταστάντες ἐκ πόθου ἀγῶνι μὲν τὴν ἅμιλλαν ἔκρινον καὶ ἆθλον τὸν τῆς κόρης γάμον προὐτίθεντο. καὶ προςπεσὼν Ἡρακλῆς παρασπᾷ μὲν Ἀχελῷον τοῦ κέρως, τὸ δὲ καταρρεῦσαν αἷμα τοῦ τραύματος κατεβάλετο Σειρήνων γένεσιν.

The double meaning makes perfect sense to me--there are many other authors who rationalized the myth (Herakles regulating a real river for agricultural purposes is the "breaking of the horn") so I don't see why Libanios wouldn't play upon that theme.
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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by MattK »

I'm not sure exactly what your aim is with these translations, Nick, but if it's for readers who don't know Greek to be able to understand what these passages actually say, then surely you have to translate it as "blood". "Vital fluid" doesn't make it clear.

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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by njmolinari »

The purpose of the book is to provide a massive corpus for advanced Acheloios studies (this will be my third book on Acheloios--the fourth will be written later). It will contain all literature, inscriptions, and iconography of Acheloios, and has close to 2,000 entries, though some numismatic entries have dozens of minor varieties listed under the main entry. Ideally, the work will help facilitate discussions like this among Acheloios enthusiasts, which, when done in good spirit, are so much fun!

If Libanios was deliberatly playing with the words to highlight the double meaning of the myth, which is really masterful in my mind, I think it would be important to express this is in the translation, but at the same time the work will be heavily annotated so I would discuss the choice of "vital fluid" over blood in the opening summary of the passage.
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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by seneca2008 »

This is the translation given in "Libanius’s Progymnasmata Model Exercises in Greek Prose Composition and Rhetoric
Translated with an Introduction and Notes by Craig A. Gibson."

"Heracles wanted to marry Deianira, the daughter of Oeneus, but the river Achelous was in love with the girl, too. Fearing both of them, Oeneus freely offered her to neither. And so, setting his daughter as the prize he ordered them to compete for her. And Heracles won at wrestling by pulling off the river’s horn. And the blood flowed and Earth received it; from this the Sirens were born.2

2. Elsewhere the Sirens are said to be the offspring of Achelous by Melpomene (Apollodorus, Bibl. 1.3.4) or Sterope (Bibl. 1.7.10), or to be the offspring of Earth (Euripides, Hel. 167–169) or Phorcys (Sophocles frg. 861 Radt)

and your second text is

"Heracles longed for Deianira, daughter of Oeneus, but the river Achelous longed for her, as well. Coming into conflict because of their desire, they decided the issue with a contest and set marriage to the girl as the prize. And having attacked him Heracles pulled off Achelous’s horn, and the blood of the wound running down sowed the birth of the Sirens."

There are of course many examples of ancient texts which rationalise myth for example Diodorus Siculus. But the rationalisation is explicit in the Greek text. I think the problem with mixing interpretation with translation is that the Greekless reader is misled about what the Greek actually says.

Surely it would be best to keep the translations close to the Greek and interpretation confined to notes? Of course it depends on whether this is an academic exercise, with academic rigour expected.

I don't mean to disparage anyone by this post.
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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by njmolinari »

Thank you for the Gibson translations!

The book (CLIIA) will be a peer-reviewed academic work produced to a very high standard and will take many years to complete, however, although primarily a reference tool for scholars, I will provide many interpretations of passages and iconographic representations that are based on my analysis after many years of study. So it will certainly contain some conjecture but I do not think that means it will lack academic riguour or preclude it from becoming the standard reference on Acheloios.

I think your suggestion to keep blood in the translation and "vital fluid" in the notes is a fair one. Still, I don't really see "vital fluid" as overly imaginative--it could just as easily be read as a euphemism for blood. I would like to read more of Gibson to get the larger context and familiarize myself wih Libanios' style.
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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by jeidsath »

αἷμα for the ancients was blood, but as might be expected for an age before microscopes, the word was also sometimes rarely used for any of the various red or black fluids that they knew of: juice of the grape or red dye or black ink. They went the other way too: blood was called a juice or flavor, χυλός/χυμός, coming into our language as "humor".

The interesting thing in this section is that we have three words with a double meaning for the author: κέρας ἀνασπάσας and Σειρῆνες. He melds the two famous stories of the bull and the river into one. I find that interesting. The αἷμα here, I think, needs to be translated in a way that supports that double mental image, or the translator failed to bring the single most striking element of this author's story across.

Michael complains about my use of the word etymology calling σειριάζειν "a supposed etymology of Siren." In fact it is the LSJ which explicitly refers to the Theon passage as presenting an "etymology." Their word, not mine.

I notice "he ordered them to compete for her" in the Gibson translation. I had thought of making a note of that possibility. He takes τὴν θυγατέρα as an accusative object of διαγωνίζεσθαι. That does not occur elsewhere, but does occur rarely for ἀγωνίζεσθαι. Contest the girl. But διαγωνίζεσθαι also means decide a contest, and this understanding could be contextually supported by the preceding δεδοικὼς. I think that my translation is more likely than Gibson's for that section.
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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by MattK »

I read στήσας οὖν ἆθλον τὴν θυγατέρα as meaning "having set his daughter up as a prize" and then διαγωνίζεσθαι ἐκέλευε as "he told them to compete", which seems to be Gibson's understanding as well.

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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by seneca2008 »

I think your suggestion to keep blood in the translation and "vital fluid" in the notes is a fair one. Still, I don't really see "vital fluid" as overly imaginative--it could just as easily be read as a euphemism for blood. I would like to read more of Gibson to get the larger context and familiarize myself wih Libanios' style.
That is not exactly what I was suggesting. I don't endorse "vital fluid" as a translation even in the notes. The Greek says blood and that must be what the author was thinking of.

The problem of course is that Acheloos (the spelling I am most familiar with) is a shape shifter. He is at the same time a bull and a river god. He seems to have started life as a river but was then transformed into a bull in Archilochos (287 W) and Pindar (fr 249a SM). Deianeira in the Trachiniai says she was wooed by Acheloos in three forms a bull, a snake and a half man/ half bull. The constant feature of the battle with Herakles in these accounts seems to be the broken horn. If anyone is interested in reading more about the iconography it's page 433 of early Greek Myth by Timothy Ganz.

There are other myths where blood is spilt. Interestingly in Libanius we have "καὶ τὸ αἷμα γίνεται ποταμός, τῷ δὲ ποταμῷ ὄνομα Μαρσύας." And the blood became a river, and the name of the river was Marsyas. from 20. "Περὶ Μαρσύου καὶ αὐλῶν".

I think the context of these passages should caution against over interpretation and over translation. They are examples of exercises "progymnasmata, or ‘preliminary exercises,’ used in the education in rhetoric of elite boys and men. I doubt we are intended to read anything particularly complex in what seems to be an exercise in telling a story very clearly.
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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by jeidsath »

@MattK He's adding "for her" as explanation, you're saying? That does make sense to explain Gibson, though it still doesn't let us decide between the two. Impossible to tell masculine ἆθλος from neuter ἆθλον in the accusative unfortunately. The other version could almost help, but describes both contest and prize, and removes dad's agency.

Joseph Lister (father of antiseptic surgery) is the earliest date that I can find for the practice in modern English of referring to a person's blood as his "vital fluid". 1863 Croonian lecture to the Royal Society:
When a part has been deprived for a while of circulation, the want of the vital fluid creates in the tissues a demand for a supply of it, and that this demand operates on the vasomotor nervous apparatus of the limb as a stimulus inducing arterial relaxation.
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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by MattK »

I think it's just more idiomatic English to add the "for her". It could have been avoided by saying something like "he told them to fight it out" but that is probably not the right register for this text.

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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by jeidsath »

Agreed, it's better English. Present tense makes your "fight it out" difficult to me, though it would motivate the δια- as to completion. Here it's got to be separation. Lit. "he told them to contest with one another". But understanding Gibson is far less interesting than deciding between the two possible Greek constructions.
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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by mwh »

Deleted. But I stand by what I have said.

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Re: Libanos, Progymnasmata Progymnasma 2.1.1.1-8 (ed. Foerster)

Post by jeidsath »

Okay. I never saw it. Implying that you were reading the Loeb for your understanding of Theon was a low blow on my part, and I apologize for that. You were right to say that was beneath me.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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