Sermones Romani: Colloquium Arminii cum Flavo fratre

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Antonius Calvus
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Sermones Romani: Colloquium Arminii cum Flavo fratre

Post by Antonius Calvus »

I'm struggling with the last part of Tacitus' text:
Paulatim inde ad iurgia prolapsi, quominus pugnam
consererent ne flumine quidem interiecto cohibebantur
-- ni Stertinius accurrens plenum irae 'armaque et equum'
poscentem Flavum attinuisset! Cernebatur contra minita-
bundus Arminius 'proelium'que denuntians -- nam plera-
que Latino sermone interiaciebat, ut qui Romanis in
castris ductor popularium meruisset.
Here is my translation so far, but it is more based on
feeling than actually understanding what's going on
grammatically in some parts:
Gradually thence lapsed into quarrels, they would not
have been contained from joining in a fight even by the
river in between -- unless Stertinius had come running
forward and held back Flavus, full of rage and calling for
arms and a horse! On the opposite side Arminius could be
discerned threatening 'battle' -- for most of the time he
threw in Latin talk, because he had served as commander
of his citizens in a Roman camp.
1. The sentence with "minitabundus", "denuntians" and "que" really confuses me. Ørberg says in the margin that minitabundus = minitans and that denuntiare = nuntiare, minari. To me "minitabundus Arminius 'proelium'que denuntians" then seems to mean "the threatening Arminius and threatening war", which makes absolutely no sense to me.

2. I also don't understand the last part, "ut qui Romanis in castris ductor popularium meruisset". The margin says "ut qui meruisset = quia meruerat" and "populares = cives (sui)" What is this ut qui-construction, and why does it mean "quia"? Is it the same type of ut...verb in perfect tense construction that can mean "when"? And should merere here be understood as "stipendium merere"? I'm also not sure if castris and Romanis actually belong together and mean "a Roman camp".

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I feel quite lost.
Fures privatorum furtorum in nervo atque in compedibus aetatem agunt, fures publici in auro atque in purpura.

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seneca2008
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Re: Sermones Romani: Colloquium Arminii cum Flavo fratre

Post by seneca2008 »

To me "minitabundus Arminius 'proelium'que denuntians" then seems to mean "the threatening Arminius and threatening war", which makes absolutely no sense to me.
"minitabundus Arminius 'proelium' que denuntians

Arminius shouting threats and menacing war. minitabundus - faisant des menaces (Gaffiot)

"ut qui Romanis in castris ductor popularium meruisset".
That he had gained as general (leader ) of his fellow countrymen in the roman camp.

Does that help?
Last edited by seneca2008 on Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Sermones Romani: Colloquium Arminii cum Flavo fratre

Post by seneca2008 »

for ut qui see gildersleeve 626

"626. Explanatory relative.--Qui, with the Indicative
(= is enim, for he), often approaches quod, in that.....

Notes.-1. This causal sense is heightened by ut, utpote, as, quippe, namely.
Ut qui is rare in early Latin, Caesar, and Cicero, and is not found at all in Terence
and Satuust. Livy, however, is fond of it. The mood is everywhere the Subjunctive.

Forgot that bit
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Antonius Calvus
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Re: Sermones Romani: Colloquium Arminii cum Flavo fratre

Post by Antonius Calvus »

Thanks Seneca, now that you've provided good translations it does seem clear. Btw, does the qui in "ut qui" refer to "Latino sermone"?
Fures privatorum furtorum in nervo atque in compedibus aetatem agunt, fures publici in auro atque in purpura.

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Re: Sermones Romani: Colloquium Arminii cum Flavo fratre

Post by seneca2008 »

I think it refers to Arminius.

Cernebatur contra minitabundus Arminius proeliumque denuntians - nam pleraque Latino sermone interiaciebat, ut qui Romanis in castris ductor popularium meruisset.

Arminius was seen on the opposite side shouting threats and menacing war - for he was (kept?) throwing between (them) (interjecting?) much in Latin because he had gained (this ie Latin) as general (leader ) of his fellow countrymen in the roman camp.

I took mereo to be "gained" and that this referred to the Latin he had acquired in service. But it might be simpler to take it as "serve as a soldier" or in his case as a leader of his countrymen. So maybe "because he had served as general (leader ) of his fellow countrymen in the roman camp."

This is an explanatory relative. Gildersleeve says "Qui plus subjunctive gives a ground". I think this explains what Ørberg is getting at in the margin, when he mentions quia.

I hope I have explained the grammar sufficiently, so that you can understand the Latin, even if my translations are a bit clunky.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Antonius Calvus
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Re: Sermones Romani: Colloquium Arminii cum Flavo fratre

Post by Antonius Calvus »

I can't really say that I'm getting the logic behind the "ut qui" construction, but maybe that doesn't matter so much as long as I'm able to identify it in a text and remember what it means. Thanks again!
Fures privatorum furtorum in nervo atque in compedibus aetatem agunt, fures publici in auro atque in purpura.

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seneca2008
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Re: Sermones Romani: Colloquium Arminii cum Flavo fratre

Post by seneca2008 »

I think the best thing is to read Gildersleeve 624- 626. Try here https://archive.org/details/gildersleev ... 0/mode/2up
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Sermones Romani: Colloquium Arminii cum Flavo fratre

Post by mwh »

To amplify seneca's good explanations:
ut qui is literally “as (one) who“ with causal subjunctive, so it’s tantamount to “inasmuch as he.” It comes into regular use in the late Republic and early Empire.

Here it has to refer to Arminius (Hermann), who “Romanis in castris ductor popularium meruisset”—explaining how most of what he said in his quarrel with Flavus was in Latin. meruisset refers to his military service; stipendium is to be understood with it.

minitabundus (lovely word!) and proelium denuntians are predicative.

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Antonius Calvus
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Re: Sermones Romani: Colloquium Arminii cum Flavo fratre

Post by Antonius Calvus »

Thanks seneca and mwh for taking the time to explain all this. The literal translation "as (one) who" cleared it up even more for me. I have also bookmarked Gildersleeve now.
Fures privatorum furtorum in nervo atque in compedibus aetatem agunt, fures publici in auro atque in purpura.

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