Prepositions - Mastronarde

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Pianophile
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Prepositions - Mastronarde

Post by Pianophile »

I started JACT Reading Greek last October which I really like. Am now supplementing it with Mastronarde to concentrate more on grammar. Atm I feel overwhelmed by Unit 8 which deals with prepositions. Trying to memorise them without context hasn’t worked at all. Having constructed easy sentences with the prepositions has merely shown me the Mt Everest facing me. Is it time to move on to Unit 9, continue with JACT and deal with prepositions as they turn up in context? Or even forget about Mastronarde altogether? I have also downloaded Burnet’s Greek Rudiments mentioned by Joel which seems useful.
My life, each morning when I dress, is four and twenty hours less. (J Richardson)
τοῦτ' ἑν ψυχῇ λόγοι ὁσπερ κάλλος ἑν σώματι.

cb
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Re: Prepositions - Mastronarde

Post by cb »

Hi, I wouldn't drop Mastronarde because of his coverage of prepositions. No grammar does this well, nor can it: you'll learn far more about prepositions by extensive reading and from the dictionary (e.g. certain verbs are typically paired with certain prepositions; you can't get that from a general list in an introductory textbook).

I still think however that it's worth reading at least one specialist work on prepositions, so that you have a conceptual framework to make some sense of their use in individual texts: even this old book by Adams still has its value, and would recommend that you take a few hours out to blast through and read it once:

https://archive.org/details/greekprepos ... ew=theater

There are more recent books on prepositions where the scholarship has been updated, but really the best way to take them in is through reading, later on in your classics progression.

Cheers, Chad

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Re: Prepositions - Mastronarde

Post by paveln »

How to learn prepositions quickly and easily?
I recommend you take a look at the pictures here:
https://pressbooks.pub/ancientgreek/chapter/13/
The first one, where the directions are explained according to the cases:
The original or core meaning of Greek prepositions often indicates DIRECTION. This chart shows the directions that each case generally indicates.

And then at the bottom the pictures with the lion :-) I'm sure you'll remember that.

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Re: Prepositions - Mastronarde

Post by seneca2008 »

Pianophile wrote:. Atm I feel overwhelmed by Unit 8 which deals with prepositions.
I think it's a mistake to try and learn all the prepositions in one go. I think the plan is that you should learn the prepositions as they arise in the text. Doing anything quickly will not stick.

I suggest you look again at para 38 on page 28 which provides an introduction to prepositions and lists the prepositions which you will have encountered up that point in the text (1G)

Section 8 deals with the genitive case and lists some prepositions which take the genitive case p 164 para 180 c. Some of these you have already met in the early part of the book. If you know Latin you will see that some of these take the ablative case in that language. The ablative case has been lost in Greek and its function taken in part by the genitive.

You will find a list of all the prepositions used in reading Greek in the reference grammar para 390 page 443. But I would only use this as reference.

I think prepositions (and most vocabulary) are best learned in context so perhaps its time to retrace your steps and look through earlier examples in the text.

You have made good progress in four months. How much time have you spent in revising what you have done?

Mastronarde is a great book and would on its own provide a sound introduction to Attic Greek. I wonder what the real value is of using it as a supplement to Reading Greek. It wont do any harm although I think Reading Greek deals with the declensions in a different way from that adopted by M (amongst other differences).

If you have a specific question ask away here. if it's a question of memorisation, firstly concentrate on recognising what those prepositions which take the same case have in common. The genitive generally is out of, away from etc the accusative involves motion etc etc.

To underline what I said earlier try to learn the prepositions as and when they come up rather than as a long list. Have you tried to do the exercise 8A-C 11 on p 165?
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Prepositions - Mastronarde

Post by Pianophile »

cb wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 8:35 pm . . . you'll learn far more about prepositions by extensive reading and from the dictionary (e.g. certain verbs are typically paired with certain prepositions; you can't get that from a general list in an introductory textbook).
Many thanks underlining the importance of "extensive reading" but also the usefulness of a dictionary (the recently acquired Cambridge Greek Lexicon may perhaps not be such an "overkill"?). I am likely to spend more than just a few hours on the "Greek Prepositions" by Adams.
paveln wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 9:32 pm How to learn prepositions quickly and easily?
I recommend you take a look at the pictures here:
https://pressbooks.pub/ancientgreek/chapter/13/
The first one, where the directions are explained according to the cases:
The original or core meaning of Greek prepositions often indicates DIRECTION. This chart shows the directions that each case generally indicates.

And then at the bottom the pictures with the lion :-) I'm sure you'll remember that.
Thanks for the link. Quick and easy? Fingers crossed. :-)
seneca2008 wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:06 am . . . Doing anything quickly will not stick.

I suggest you look again at para 38 on page 28 which provides an introduction to prepositions and lists the prepositions which you will have encountered up that point in the text (1G) . . .
You have made good progress in four months. How much time have you spent in revising what you have done?

Mastronarde is a great book and would on its own provide a sound introduction to Attic Greek. I wonder what the real value is of using it as a supplement to Reading Greek. It wont do any harm although I think Reading Greek deals with the declensions in a different way from that adopted by M (amongst other differences). To underline what I said earlier try to learn the prepositions as and when they come up rather than as a long list. Have you tried to do the exercise 8A-C 11 on p 165?
Thanks for your response. - I now realise where I went wrong. While repeatedly redoing the exercises in Mastronarde, I did not do that with Reading Greek exercises. I still see my "come back to" pencil marks on page 28 para 38 - and elsewhere - but that did not happen! I spend a lot of time revising, i.e. re-reading "Text and Vocabulary", marking the various cases and prepositions as they turn up. Since I have only just started on Section 6A, Section 8A-C11 is still a long way off.
My life, each morning when I dress, is four and twenty hours less. (J Richardson)
τοῦτ' ἑν ψυχῇ λόγοι ὁσπερ κάλλος ἑν σώματι.

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Re: Prepositions - Mastronarde

Post by seneca2008 »

Pianophile wrote:Since I have only just started on Section 6A,
I misunderstood what you meant by section 8. I now see you meant Mastronarde. If you look at prepositions in the index of Reading Greek you will see what you have already covered.

I think you are trying to ride two horses at the same and coming unstuck. My advice is to pick one and stick with it. If not instead of covering one book well you might cover two patchily. Reading Greek will get you where you want to go, there is a lot of reading and most of the grammar you will need. Mastronarde has less reading and more exercises. If you use both you would need to use it judiciously with Reading Greek, only picking things you have covered in Reading Greek. Sounds like a hard way to do it . M. is I think designed mostly as a class book with a teacher. Reading Greek can be successfully used without a teacher, although one makes it easier.

Good luck
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Prepositions - Mastronarde

Post by Pianophile »

seneca2008 wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 4:14 pm
I think you are trying to ride two horses at the same and coming unstuck. My advice is to pick one and stick with it. . . .
You are quite right. I got sidetracked by Mastronarde, and instead of making progress I have fallen behind. A two-pronged approach seemed a good idea at the time, but it didn't work out in this case. That doesn't mean I can't benefit from studying the books recommended by Chad and paveln, both of which deal specifically with Prepositions. - Back to the drawing board - er, Reading Greek.
Again many thanks for your support.
My life, each morning when I dress, is four and twenty hours less. (J Richardson)
τοῦτ' ἑν ψυχῇ λόγοι ὁσπερ κάλλος ἑν σώματι.

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Re: Prepositions - Mastronarde

Post by seneca2008 »

I guess a lot depends on how much time you have to devote to your Greek. it's often a good idea to look at other resources if you have time. I too have followed Chad's recommendation on Adams and will try to find time to look at it. The Cambridge Grammar is a very wise investment and I hope you look at it too from time to time .

Perhaps a good strategy for your revision of prepositions would be to go through the text from the beginning and write out some example sentences such as τὸ πλοῖόν ἐστιν ἐν Βυζαντίῳ and ask yourself which case ἐν takes etc. Also note the prefixes of some verbs εἰσ-βαίνω and κατα-βαίνω.

Your primary aim at this stage is to recognise forms rather than being able to actively use them in composition or exercises. That will come later.

It can be a lonely business learning on your own so check in and let us know how you are getting on. Posts don't always have to be about what you find difficult.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Prepositions - Mastronarde

Post by Pianophile »

John 1:1 - Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. 

I came across this on YouTube which I feel might be another good way to learn/memorise prepositions. Are there any serious drawbacks to looking at Koine Greek when studying Attic Greek?

Ἐν ἀρχῇ = In the beginning (D)
ἦν ὁ λόγος, = was the Word, (N)
καὶ ὁ λόγος = and the Word
ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν (A), = was with God, πρὸς + A.
καὶ θεὸς (N)= and God
ἦν ὁ λόγος.= was the Word.
My life, each morning when I dress, is four and twenty hours less. (J Richardson)
τοῦτ' ἑν ψυχῇ λόγοι ὁσπερ κάλλος ἑν σώματι.

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Re: Prepositions - Mastronarde

Post by seneca2008 »

I still think you would be better off learning some examples taken from the textbook you are using. That will minimise possible confusion.

I must be missing something because I dont know what your actual difficulty is.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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