Attikos app parsing of καταλῦσαι

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hlawson38
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Attikos app parsing of καταλῦσαι

Post by hlawson38 »

Thucydides 1.82 [6] ἐγκλήματα μὲν γὰρ καὶ πόλεων καὶ ἰδιωτῶν οἷόν τε καταλῦσαι:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... apter%3D82

Attikos app parses καταλῦσαι as aorist infinitive. The Perseus parse looks like this:
καταλῦσαι verb 3rd sg aor opt act no user votes 17%
καταλῦσαι † verb aor inf act no user votes 74%
καταλῦσαι verb 2nd sg aor imperat mid no user votes 9%
Should καταλῦσαι be read as aorist, optative, active? I couldn't find a grammatical rationale for the infinitive in this case. But I also have some trouble with the active voice in this verb here.
Hugh Lawson

truks
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Re: Attikos app parsing of καταλῦσαι

Post by truks »

hlawson38 wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 1:22 pm
Thucydides 1.82 [6] ἐγκλήματα μὲν γὰρ καὶ πόλεων καὶ ἰδιωτῶν οἷόν τε καταλῦσαι:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... apter%3D82

Attikos app parses καταλῦσαι as aorist infinitive. The Perseus parse looks like this:
καταλῦσαι verb 3rd sg aor opt act no user votes 17%
καταλῦσαι † verb aor inf act no user votes 74%
καταλῦσαι verb 2nd sg aor imperat mid no user votes 9%
Should καταλῦσαι be read as aorist, optative, active? I couldn't find a grammatical rationale for the infinitive in this case. But I also have some trouble with the active voice in this verb here.
Hi Hugh,

I think final opt. -αι would count as long, making ῦ impossible.

Check out the first paragraph on p. 286 in Mastronarde where he talks about accentuation of the optative. :-)

HTH

hlawson38
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Re: Attikos app parsing of καταλῦσαι

Post by hlawson38 »

truks wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:13 pm
hlawson38 wrote: Sat Feb 18, 2023 1:22 pm
Thucydides 1.82 [6] ἐγκλήματα μὲν γὰρ καὶ πόλεων καὶ ἰδιωτῶν οἷόν τε καταλῦσαι:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... apter%3D82

Attikos app parses καταλῦσαι as aorist infinitive. The Perseus parse looks like this:
καταλῦσαι verb 3rd sg aor opt act no user votes 17%
καταλῦσαι † verb aor inf act no user votes 74%
καταλῦσαι verb 2nd sg aor imperat mid no user votes 9%
Should καταλῦσαι be read as aorist, optative, active? I couldn't find a grammatical rationale for the infinitive in this case. But I also have some trouble with the active voice in this verb here.
Hi Hugh,

I think final opt. -αι would count as long, making ῦ impossible.

Check out the first paragraph on p. 286 in Mastronarde where he talks about accentuation of the optative. :-)

HTH
Many thanks to truks for calling my attention to the accentuation. Here is the sentence again:
Thucydides 1.82 [6] ἐγκλήματα μὲν γὰρ καὶ πόλεων καὶ ἰδιωτῶν οἷόν τε καταλῦσαι:
I overlooked or forgot the meaning of this idiom: οἷόν τε.

Cameron notes that it can mean "it is possible". Hence, καταλῦσαι should be read as an infinitive complement. That resolves the difficulty.
Hugh Lawson

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jeidsath
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Re: Attikos app parsing of καταλῦσαι

Post by jeidsath »

I was going to post 1.80 yesterday, but didn't get to it:

καὶ διὰ ταχέων οἷόν τε ἐφ’ ἕκαστα ἐλθεῖν
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

hlawson38
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Re: Attikos app parsing of καταλῦσαι

Post by hlawson38 »

Well said, Joel. And to reinforce the point, here is a snip from Middle Liddell. I hope the line breaks I inserted make the reading easier.
III. [select] οἷος with inf. implies Fitness or Ability to do,

οἷος ἔην τελέσαι ἔργον τε ἔπος τε so ready was he to make good both deed and word, Od.;

οἷος ἔην βουλευέμεν ἠδὲ μάχεσθαι so good both at counsel and in fight, Od.;

τὸ πρᾶγμα μέγα καὶ μὴ οἷον νεωτέρῳ βουλεύσασθαι the matter is great and not such as for a young man to advise upon, Thuc.;

without an inf., ὁ δ᾽ οἷός ἐστιν οἰκουρὸς μόνον fit only [to be] a house-dog, Ar.

2. [select] but this sense is commonly expressed by οἷός τε, c. inf., fit or able to do,

λέγειν οἷός τε κἀγώ id=Ar.;

οἷός τε ἦν πείθειν Dem.:

freq. in neut. sg. and pl., οἷόν τε ἐστί and οἷά τε ἐστί, οἷόν τε γίγνεται it is possible, Hdt.,

attic; without inf., οἷόν τε ἐστίν it is possible, οὐχ οἷόν τε ἐστίν it cannot be, Ar.;

with a Sup., καλὸν ὡς οἷόν τε μάλιστα as beautiful as is possible, Plat.;

ὡς οἷόν τε διὰ βραχυτάτων id=Plat.
Hugh Lawson

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