5, 4, 18

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Constantinus Philo
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5, 4, 18

Post by Constantinus Philo »

πέμπων φανερὸς ἦν τοὺς θεραπεύσοντας.
he was openly sending servants. Is this correct?
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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by jeidsath »

The adverb would imply the action being "done openly". Here, whether it was done openly or not, it was evident that he was doing it.
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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by phalakros »

Constantinus Philo wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 3:14 pm πέμπων φανερὸς ἦν τοὺς θεραπεύσοντας.
he was openly sending servants. Is this correct?
Yes, he did it clearly/evidently/conspicuously/openly, so that it would be known that he had sent them himself. Also, note the tense of τοὺς θεραπεύσοντας (“people who would tend to them”).

As you may know, there is a difference in meaning between the infinitive and participle here: πέμπων φαίνεται/φανερός/δῆλός ἐστιν = he is clearly sending vs πέμπειν φαίνεται = he seems to be sending. There’s a silly hexametric mnemonic: φαίνομαι ὢν quod sum, quod non sum φαίνομαι εἶναι.

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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by Constantinus Philo »

thanks, thats a good point that i might have overlooked.
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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by jeidsath »

Note that the LSJ agrees with my distinction, against phalakros, who is wrong here:
Constr.: φανερός εἰμι c. part., ἀπικόμενοι φανεροί εἰσι they are known to have come
However:
Adv. -ρῶς openly, manifestly
The reason for it to work this way, and not as phalakros has it, should be clear from the mechanics of the Greek, not just from this gloss, if he stops to think for a moment.
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Constantinus Philo
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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by Constantinus Philo »

Thank you, I have also consulted the Brill Dictionary; it gives examples in both meanings for this construction: Hdt., 7., 18., 4 : openly promoted. and Hdt., 3., 26., 1 it is known.
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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by jeidsath »

First, I want to be clear about the difference in English. To "openly" do something is to intentionally act in a public manner. (Agent's intention.) To manifestly do something is to have one's actions known by others. (Non-agent knowledge.)

With that in mind, I don't agree with Brill's gloss here (which is just lifted from a loosey-goosey Loeb translation to try to "improve" the LSJ, but face-plants instead, as Brill often does). Look at the Greek of 7.18.4: ὃς πρότερον ἀποσπεύδων μοῦνος ἐφαίνετο, τότε ἐπισπεύδων φανερὸς ἦν. The opposition is between ἀποσπεύδων μοῦνος ἐφαίνετο and ἐπισπεύδων φανερὸς.

That first, φαίνεται + part., just doesn't mean "openly". That construction is not about an agent intentionally acting in a public way. You can see it easily in this bit from Antiphon's murder of Herodes (I came across it last week in Rouse's Reader): οὔτ’ αὖ ἐγὼ ἄνευ προφάσεως ἱκανῆς φαίνομαι τὸν πλοῦν ποιησάμενος εἰς τὴν Αἶνον. What is characterized by φαίνεται + part., and φανερὸς + part. is knowledge of other people, not agent intention.
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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by Constantinus Philo »

ok, Im trying to see your point but actually I posted this because the English translation `he showed his personal interest by sending some one' seemed to me a bit far fetched. Icannot see any 'personal interest' in φανερὸς.
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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by jeidsath »

"Personal interest" is an addition of the translator to communicate the connection to the preceding phrase. The statement is that Cyrus is either 1) ἢ αὐτόπτης ἐφεώρα or 2) ἢ πέμπων φανερὸς τοὺς θεραπεύσοντα for each of the wounded. The point being made is that this is why, in addition to skipping dinner, he was ἀνιώμενος δῆλος, a statement about his public perception. A narrator could have just said ἀνιώμενος ἦν and ἔπεμπε τοὺς θεραπεύσοντα, but that's not what Xenophon is doing here. He's talking about the impression that Cyrus gave off.

The strong feeling that I get reading (and I don't feel the small snip of translation that you quote quite brings this off, but maybe it would if I saw more of it) is that this reads like a aide-de-camp writing a hagiographical and eyewitness description of his commander's actions. That would be a fictional narrative viewpoint for Xenophon to adopt, of course, but one motivated by real elements in his personal history. I wouldn't be surprised to see this sort of writing in a David Hackworth account of Vietnam or so on.
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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by Constantinus Philo »

ok this is what I wanted to know, namely that 'personal interest' is the translator's interference from the context. Thanx.
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Re: 5, 4, 18

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First, I want to be clear about the difference in English. To "openly" do something is to intentionally act in a public manner. (Agent's intention.) To manifestly do something is to have one's actions known by others. (Non-agent knowledge.)
With respect I think this is not how these words are used in British English.

The OED defines manifestly as "in a manifest manner or (qualifying a statement) as is manifest, evidently, unmistakably". Manifest is defined as "make evident to the eye or to the understanding, show plainly, reveal, display..by action or behaviour....."

Openly is defined as "in an open manner, publicly, Manifestly, clearly plainly, without concealment of thought or feeling".

There is no hint of any requirement for any agency.

Someone "may be entirely unaware that they openly behave in a certain way" or "that they manifest behaviour (behave manifestly is now archaic) which they are unaware of" but surely these things mean the same thing.
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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by Hylander »

If there were any doubt, the context makes it clear that Cyrus is deliberately displaying his concern for his wounded allies, either by personally overseeing their care or by conspicuously sending others to tend to them. The translation captures the implication of φανερὸς ἦν well.

This is the lesson in leadership that X. is conveying. It's consistent with X.'s account of Cyrus' ability to retain the loyalty of everyone fighting under his direct command (as, for example, the care he took to learn and remember personal names) and even of allies from diverse ethnic groups, and it's consistent with the larger picture of how he succeeded in welding together a multi-ethnic empire, the theme of the Cyropaedia announced in 1.1.5.
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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by jeidsath »

seneca2008 wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 3:07 pm
First, I want to be clear about the difference in English. To "openly" do something is to intentionally act in a public manner. (Agent's intention.) To manifestly do something is to have one's actions known by others. (Non-agent knowledge.)
With respect I think this is not how these words are used in British English.
With respect, I suggest that you go to BBC.com and search for "openly" and then for "manifestly" and note the usage of both. I take the first four results for "openly".

"openly gay footballer": self-declared gay, *not* obviously gay
"never talked openly about the war": never talked in public about the war, *not* was never thought to have talked about the war
"IMF openly criticises UK government tax plans": makes the criticisms in public, *not* is seen to have criticisms
"speaking openly": speaking in public, *not* is seen to be speaking

First four results for "manifestly":

"Cameron 'manifestly wrong'": is seen to be obviously wrong, *not* being self-declaredly wrong
"manifestly unsafe conditions": conditions seen to be obviously unsafe, *not* self-declaredly unsafe
"manifestly anti-Semitic": obviously an anti-Semite, *not* a self-declared anti-Semite
"manifestly unfair": seem unfair to any observer, *not* self-declaredly unfair

The two are not at all the same in usage on BBC.com. "openly" is used to express agency in each case. "Manifestly" is used to talk about the knowledge of non-agents.
Hylander wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:14 pm If there were any doubt, the context makes it clear that Cyrus is deliberately displaying his concern for his wounded allies, either by personally overseeing their care or by conspicuously sending others to tend to them. The translation captures the implication of φανερὸς ἦν well.
Loeb translation (correct, but non-literal) or C.P./Phalakros translation (incorrect)? This entire thread above is why "conspicuously sending" is incorrect. It gets agency wrong. What is meant is *not* an act of display. He was not "conspicuously sending" others to nurse them. Rather, his sending of others was conspicuous and noted.
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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by phalakros »

Constantinus Philo wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:22 pm thanks, thats a good point that i might have overlooked.
No worries. φαίνομαι/φανερός + ptcp vs φαίνομαι + inf. is an important distinction. For more examples, look also at the entries for δῆλος and φαίνομαι in LSJ, CGCG, Smyth, etc. There's a similar contrast with αἰσχύνομαι c. ptcp vs inf, and sometimes ἄρχομαι.
Hylander wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:14 pm This is the lesson in leadership that X. is conveying. It's consistent with X.'s account of Cyrus' ability to retain the loyalty of everyone fighting under his direct command (as, for example, the care he took to learn and remember personal names) and even of allies from diverse ethnic groups, and it's consistent with the larger picture of how he succeeded in welding together a multi-ethnic empire, the theme of the Cyropaedia announced in 1.1.5.
What an exquisite encapsulation. In anecdotes like this one or how Cyrus addressed his soldiers by names I think Xenophon's influence over the later Greek and Latin biographical tradition is especially conspicuous.

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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by jeidsath »

Seneca's last to the Academy. Hylander, Phalakros, please don't let that have any chilling effect on your childishness. I've been having tremendously more fun since we switched to this game.

Decoder ring for those who need it: φανεροί εἰσι τὼ δύο σοφωτάτω οὐ φανερῶς προσειπόντες με.
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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by Paul Derouda »

Phalakros, far from being childish, points out a very important distinction in Greek between φαίνομαι with ptcp vs. infinitive. If there’s anything to be learned from this thread, that would be it- for those that would listen. Personally I thank him for pointing out that the same distinction also exists with other verbs, something I wasn’t aware of.

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Re: 5, 4, 18

Post by jeidsath »

Oh yes, that's accurate and not a bad point, though not quite relevant, and not the childishness that I complained of. It comes from the participle's nature of an adjective with verbal force.

Also, "if there is anything to be learned." If you think that I'm wrong here, say so, and give reasons. If you are judging on people not arguments, because your Greek can't distinguish it yet, make it clear. I've given my argument.
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