Vos…vīderitis quid illī dēbeātur!

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Charlie Parker
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Vos…vīderitis quid illī dēbeātur!

Post by Charlie Parker »

This is from Ørberg's Roma Aeterna XLV 269 based on Livy. I know what the sentence means, but I have been trying to analyze the syntax by consulting Allen and Greenough's grammar. I think videritis is the subjunctive perfect and is jussive. Ōrberg gives videātis : reputētis in the margin, I suppose because the present subjunctive is more common. The second person plural gave me pause. Usually, I see the hortatory or jussive in the third person. Is debeatur subjunctive because it is a indirect question?

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seneca2008
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Re: Vos…vīderitis quid illī dēbeātur!

Post by seneca2008 »

Is debeatur subjunctive because it is a indirect question?

Yes its an indirect question.

Videritis is future perfect rather than subjunctive? I haven't looked at it for long.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Vos…vīderitis quid illī dēbeātur!

Post by Hylander »

Charlie, we need to see the full sentence to help with the grammar.
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Re: Vos…vīderitis quid illī dēbeātur!

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Charlie Parker
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Re: Vos…vīderitis quid illī dēbeātur!

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Thank you. I thought of the possibility of the future perfect. Here is what comes before.
aduentu suorum lacrimae obortae, quaerentique uiro 'satin salue?' 'minime' inquit; 'quid enim salui est mulieri amissa pudicitia? uestigia uiri alieni, Collatine, in lecto sunt tuo; ceterum corpus est tantum uiolatum, animus insons; mors testis erit. sed date dexteras fidemque haud impune adultero fore. [8] Sex. est Tarquinius qui hostis pro hospite priore nocte ui armatus mihi sibique, si uos uiri estis, pestiferum hinc abstulit gaudium.' [9] dant ordine omnes fidem; consolantur aegram animi auertendo noxam ab coacta in auctorem delicti: mentem peccare, non corpus, et unde consilium afuerit culpam abesse. [10] 'uos' inquit 'uideritis quid illi debeatur: ego me etsi peccato absoluo, supplicio non libero; nec ulla deinde impudica Lucretiae exemplo uiuet.' cultrum, [11] quem sub ueste abditum habebat, eum in corde defigit, prolapsaque in uolnus moribunda cecidit.

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Re: Vos…vīderitis quid illī dēbeātur!

Post by Hylander »

I think you're right on both counts. videritis is, as you thought, "jussive," with the perfect rather than present subjunctive. A&G gives a parallel use in Cicero of the jussive ("hortatory," in A&G's terminology) perfect subjunctive with the verb video (viderit) meaning "see to it," § 439, Note 1. debeatur is of course an indirect question.

Future perfect seems less likely. There's no future event that videritis precedes.
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Charlie Parker
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Re: Vos…vīderitis quid illī dēbeātur!

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Thank you. I just read the reference in A&G.

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seneca2008
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Re: Vos…vīderitis quid illī dēbeātur!

Post by seneca2008 »

I was in the classics library on Friday and I looked at Gould and Whiteley's Commentary on Livy Book 1.

it says "Videretis, either fut. perfect " you shall determine " or perfect subj. (jussive) a construction which is rare without a negative.

I also looked at the Companion to Roma Aeterna which says "“Vōs” inquit “vīderitis quid illī dēbeātur”: “you will see to what is due to that man”; vīderitis: future perfect; quid...dēbeātur: indirect question. "

“you will see to what is due to that man" is hardly idiomatic English but nevertheless we can see what is aimed at here.

So I was not alone in thinking it was future perfect.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

Charlie Parker
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Re: Vos…vīderitis quid illī dēbeātur!

Post by Charlie Parker »

Yes. Future perfect makes more sense to me, although I suppose I should be cautious in venturing opinions because I still consider myself to be at the beginning stages of Latin.
Last edited by Charlie Parker on Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vos…vīderitis quid illī dēbeātur!

Post by mwh »

I too read this as future perfect. To counter the objection that there’s no future event that it precedes, well, there’s her upcoming suicide, but even without that we can understand “by the time you get around to it” v.sim. or something even less definite. I can’t properly explain why, but my sense of style tells me this is indicative, not subjunctive. Of course I could be wrong; my grasp of Latin, unlike Charlie's, gets weaker and weaker.

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