John 16: 27 and Daily Dose of Greek

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neelyowen
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John 16: 27 and Daily Dose of Greek

Post by neelyowen »

I was watching Daily Dose of Greek today and its discussion of John 16:27 [αὐτὸς γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ φιλεῖ ὑμᾶς, ὅτι ὑμεῖς ἐμὲ πεφιλήκατε καὶ πεπιστεύκατε ὅτι ἐγὼ παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον] where it discussed the intentional use of αὐτὸς so that the translation of αὐτὸς γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ would read “for the father himself.” It seemed that given Paul’s proclivity for parallel structures and the intentional use of αὐτὸς, shouldn’t the phrase ὅτι ὑμεῖς ἐμὲ πεφιλήκατε better translate as “because you yourselves have loved me” rather than simply “because you have loved me”?

enoshyc
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Re: John 16: 27 and Daily Dose of Greek

Post by enoshyc »

αὐτὸς (masc. nom. sg.) only agrees with ὁ πατὴρ in the main clause αὐτὸς γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ φιλεῖ ὑμᾶς.

There is no αὐτὸς in the clause "ὅτι ὑμεῖς ἐμὲ πεφιλήκατε," and to render "because you yourselves have loved me," you would need "αὐτοί" (masc. nom. pl.) in the clause, agreeing with ὑμεῖς.

An author's style is a general observation, and it doesn't override what is actually written in a specific sentence. And, the use of αὐτὸς doesn't simply apply to any noun in the sentence, especially if they don't agree.

I hope that makes sense.

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jeidsath
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Re: John 16: 27 and Daily Dose of Greek

Post by jeidsath »

I think that ὑμεῖς and ἐγώ actually add some emphasis here, though their presence would be normal due to the shift in subject. And αὐτός is "the very Father", not something like "the Father by himself" or the various other things the English could signal.

For the very one that loves you is the Father, because *you* are in love with *me* and believe that *I* came from the Father.

God is a closed circle. Father -> you. You -> me. I -> Father.
"Here stuck the great stupid boys, who for the life of them could never master the accidence..."

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

mwh
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Re: John 16: 27 and Daily Dose of Greek

Post by mwh »

υμεις and εγω certainly add emphasis. Otherwise they wouldn’t be there. But enoshyc made the important point, that αυτος is different from the personal pronoun.

enoshyc
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Re: John 16: 27 and Daily Dose of Greek

Post by enoshyc »

Well said. I can see that circular relationship emphasized with the pronouns/noun and conjunctions used: αὐτὸς ὁ πατὴρ...ὑμᾶς, ὅτι ὑμεῖς ἐμὲ...καὶ...ἐγὼ παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ.

Right, the intensive use of αὐτὸς is to emphasize that it's not any πατὴρ, but ὁ θεός whom he links back to at the end.

Thank you!

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