Counterfactuals in Herodotus

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bcrowell
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Counterfactuals in Herodotus

Post by bcrowell »

Herodotus is known for having made various statements that are counterfactual or seem so. For example, googling turns up https://listverse.com/2015/04/08/10-his ... sly-wrong/ , which gives a top-10 list. Plutarch, living 400 years after Herodotus, wrote an essay taking him to task: https://archive.org/details/plutarchses ... 0/mode/2up

I'm interested in the topic of ancient writings making false claims that would have been known to be counterfactual by contemporaries. These would presumably be cases where the author's audience didn't overlap with the people who knew their claims to be false. Are there any examples like this in Herodotus? The examples from the top-10 site don't seem to fall into this category. Plutarch wasn't a contemporary of Herodotus, and a lot of his essay seems to be he-said-she-said, or side issues like criticism of Herodotus's rhetorical techniques, lack of piety, etc.
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Paul Derouda
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Re: Counterfactuals in Herodotus

Post by Paul Derouda »

Whether Herodotus was a liar or not and to what extent has been a subject of heavy discussion since antiquity. Beginning from 1980s especially the question has been much debated, some scholars forming the so-called "liar school".

I think considering astoundingly wide scope of Herodotus' work, the almost total lack of reliable sources in his time, and given how difficult it was to travel, it's amazing how many things he actually got right. He also doesn't believe everything and on many occasions reports anecdotes with a note of scepticism - often rightly so, but not always; for example, he is unsure whether the "tin islands" (the British islands), an important source of tin, or the Northern sea (the Baltic), where amber came from, really exist, because he has never met anyone who has been there. I don't think he ever says whether he believes the dolphin story to be true or not, for example, it's just one story among others that he chooses to report. Things he got right: on the Southern Hemisphere, the sun moves from right to left; superfetation in rabbits; Scythian burial practices, and many others. It's easy to laugh at his account of fabulous wonders in the far-reaches of the world, but there was really no way for him to verify everything in person, and some of the stories that would have been equally incredible to his contemporaries are actually true.

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bcrowell
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Re: Counterfactuals in Herodotus

Post by bcrowell »

Interesting post, thanks, Paul.

When I say counterfactual, I don't necessarily mean a lie.
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Re: Counterfactuals in Herodotus

Post by daivid »

One author (Detlev Fehling I believe) argued that the most plausible reconstruction of his method was that he got as much information as possible and then filled in the gabs with stories he made up. His skepticism was simply designed to cover his back as many of "facts" that he expressed skepticism about were likely his own composition.
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Re: Counterfactuals in Herodotus

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daivid is this really you? If so, welcome back!

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Re: Counterfactuals in Herodotus

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Yes, its me. I am probably not going to have the time at the moment to have another go at learning Ancient Greek yet but that chatGPT 4 could in principle produce the simple texts that I believe I need to get over the hump to reading the texts makes that tempting. So I might get round to it before chatGPT 6 is given some task that it decides needs the elimination of humans. :)
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Chris Weimer
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Re: Counterfactuals in Herodotus

Post by Chris Weimer »

daivid wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:41 pm One author (Detlev Fehling I believe) argued that the most plausible reconstruction of his method was that he got as much information as possible and then filled in the gabs with stories he made up. His skepticism was simply designed to cover his back as many of "facts" that he expressed skepticism about were likely his own composition.
Fehling isn't quite right either, nor is Stephanie West's continuation of the Liar School. It's such an over-simplification of Herodotus, his audience, and how historiography worked in the 5th century. Also, there are numerous plausible explanations for even fantastical elements (including cannibalistic Scythians and gold-digging ants). It's almost insulting to think that Herodotus' skepticism is a "cover", which is anachronistic and has no evidence going for it. It beggars belief. None of the first-hand testimony is fantastical, for example, and compared to Homer or Aristeas, the fantastical elements are rather tame. Moreover, Herodotus has been shown to be more accurate where Ctesias diverges from him.

With regard to this topic, unfortunately the paucity of evidence provides little opportunity to examine a proper debate about facts. Most rebuttals are found decades or centuries later. You would probably have the best bet looking at orations, though. I know Cicero mentions when his (legal) opponents have said something "not true." You might find the same among Attic orators as well.

Otherwise, you could examine how historians frame their (historical) characters speaking untrue things. The only issue there is that you'll be filtering out their statements through the historian's lens, so accuracy isn't guaranteed.

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Re: Counterfactuals in Herodotus

Post by MattK »

Years ago I saw Reinhold Bichler give a really interesting talk on Ctesias and his use of Herodotus. I found this blog, which gives a response to one of his articles on the topic and gives an idea of what he was saying. https://www.bookandsword.com/2017/11/25 ... herodotus/

I haven't read any of Bichler's books but they sound like a good place to go to for a topic like this if your German is up to it.

The Historia Augusta is another potentially relevant source, as some of the biographies contain obvious falsehoods and forgeries. But I believe the general view is that these weren't intended to be taken seriously.

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