John 21:17 "λέγει αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον· Σίμων Ἰωάννου, φιλεῖς με (Joh 21:17 BGT)"

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michaelwwww
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John 21:17 "λέγει αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον· Σίμων Ἰωάννου, φιλεῖς με (Joh 21:17 BGT)"

Post by michaelwwww »

Dear the one who is concerned,
I am a beginner of Greek. In English John 21:17a is translated as "Jesus said to him(Peter) the third time" but some English linguists told me that "Jesus said to him the third time" does not necessarily mean Jesus said the same thing as before in terms of grammar and the sentence should be "Jesus said to him for the third time" if the author means Jesus to say the same thing. I am not a native English speaker. But I want to make sure first whether in Greek John 21:17a means according to Greek grammar that Jesus said the same thing as before. Could anyone help me with this? Many Thanks!
Best,
Michael

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jeidsath
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Re: John 21:17 "λέγει αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον· Σίμων Ἰωάννου, φιλεῖς με (Joh 21:17 BGT)"

Post by jeidsath »

It's adverbial, and I would think, without context, that it could have referred either to the words spoken, or to the fact of speaking. Whichever it is puts a different spin on the second part of the verse:

"ἐλυπήθη ὁ Πέτρος ὅτι εἶπεν αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον Φιλεῖς με;"

Does this say "Peter was grieved that he asked him a third time 'Do you φιλεῖς με?". Or does it say "Peter was grieved that the third time he asked him 'Do you φιλεῖς με?'". That is, is Peter grieved that Jesus asked him three times, or is Peter grieved that Jesus switched from "ἀγαπᾷς με?" to "φιλεῖς με?" after Peter's weak "φιλῶ σε" answers?
"Here stuck the great stupid boys, who for the life of them could never master the accidence..."

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

michaelwwww
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Re: John 21:17 "λέγει αὐτῷ τὸ τρίτον· Σίμων Ἰωάννου, φιλεῖς με (Joh 21:17 BGT)"

Post by michaelwwww »

Thank you for your response. It seems to me that "the third time τὸ τρίτον" just means that it was the third time that Jesus said to Peter and did not necessarily mean that Jesus said exactly the same content. The reasons are as the following:

1) John 21:16 uses "πάλιν δεύτερον" to mean "the second time" or "a second time" but the content Jesus said to Peter this time "ἀγαπᾷς με (Joh 21:16 WHO)" is apparently different from the first time "ἀγαπᾷς με πλέον τούτων (Joh 21:15 WHO)". The first time it is like a comparision while the second time it is not. Although the two questions are similar, but there are not exactly the same.

2)Luke 23:22 "ὁ δὲ τρίτον εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς Τί γὰρ κακὸν ἐποίησεν οὗτος οὐδὲν αἴτιον θανάτου εὗρον ἐν αὐτῷ· παιδεύσας οὖν αὐτὸν ἀπολύσω (Luk 23:22 WHO)"has the similar expression "ὁ δὲ τρίτον εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς (Luk 23:22 WHO)" but it seems to mean that it was the third time that Pilate said to them. When I examine the context, Pilate said different words the third time compared to the first time as decribed in luke 23:14-16 "εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς Προσηνέγκατέ μοι τὸν ἄνθρωπον τοῦτον ὡς ἀποστρέφοντα τὸν λαόν καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐνώπιον ὑμῶν ἀνακρίνας οὐθὲν εὗρον ἐν τῷ ἀνθρώπῳ τούτῳ αἴτιον ὧν κατηγορεῖτε κατ αὐτοῦ (Luk 23:14 WHO) ἀλλ οὐδὲ Ἡρῴδης ἀνέπεμψεν γὰρ αὐτὸν πρὸς ἡμᾶς καὶ ἰδοὺ οὐδὲν ἄξιον θανάτου ἐστὶν πεπραγμένον αὐτῷ· (Luk 23:15 WHO) παιδεύσας οὖν αὐτὸν ἀπολύσω (Luk 23:16 WHO)".

3)Matthew 26:44 "καὶ ἀφεὶς αὐτοὺς πάλιν ἀπελθὼν προσηύξατο ἐκ τρίτου τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον εἰπὼν πάλιν (Mat 26:44 WHO)"tells us that Jesus prayed the third time saying the same words "προσηύξατο ἐκ τρίτου τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον εἰπὼν πάλιν (Mat 26:44 BGT)". The author intentionally added "saying the same words" otherwise it seems that we don't know whether Jesus prayed the same words if with "the third time" only.

What do you think?

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