ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

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brunosprak
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ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

Post by brunosprak »

Hello to all! This is my first post here. I started to learn Greek on my own a few years ago but had stopped. I opened the book again and here I am =). I'm using Reading Greek (RG JACT) and just finished Section 2 of the book (meaning my knowledge of Greek is rather limited yet). I decided to compose a short story using the words and grammar I have learned so far. Of course, I don't expect it to be "natural Greek", but it would be great if someone could spot grammar mistakes or improper uses of words. I hope it is good enough to be worthy of a correction...

Some remarks:
- Even though I did use only words I met in the beginning of RG, I used not-yet-shown forms of some words, like (τὴν σάλπιγγα, τῆς σάλπιγγος, τῃ νυκτί, etc.). I have looked those up in Wiktionary.
- I expect many mistakes regarding the accents...
- I used the two characters in RG imagining what they would be doing in Byzantium before boarding the ship.

Thank you very much for any help!

TEXT:

ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

Βυζάντιον ἐστι πόλις. ἐν δὲ Βυζαντίῳ, καλαί ἐμπορίαι εἰσίν.

οἱ μὲν ἐν Βυζαντίῳ μἐνουσιν ἐν τῃ νυκτί καὶ ἐν τῃ ἡμέρᾳ,

οἱ δὲ ἐκβαίνουσιν ἐν τῃ νυκτί καὶ βαίνουσιν εἰς Βυζάντιον αὖθις ἄμα ἔῳ.

ὁ τε Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις εἰσί παρά τῲ τοῦ Βυζαντίου ἐμπορίαις. ἀλλὰ ὁ Ἠγέστρατος οὐ βλέπει τὸν Ζηνόθεμιν καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις οὐ βλέπει τὸν Ἠγέστρατον, γὰρ πολλοί ἄνθρωποι εἰσίν ἐν Βυζαντίῳ.

ΖΗΝΟΘΕΜΙΣ ὦ Ζεῦ...

ποῦ εἶ σὺ, ὦ Ἠγέστρατε;

ἐγὼ οὐκ οἶδα ποῦ εἶ. ἆρα σῦ σῶος εἶ;

ἀλλὰ μὴ φρόντιζε, ζητέω γὰρ τὸν ἠμέτερον φίλον!

ἴσως δὲ εἶ ἐγγὺς ἐμοί!

τ..τίς; νῦν βλέπω τὸν Ἠγέστρατον παρά τῇ παιδιᾷ!

δεῦρο ἐλθε, ὦ Ἠγέστρατε!!

ἀλλὰ... ἐπειδὴ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις 'δεῦρο ἐλθε' λέγει, αἱ παιδιαί τὴν σάλπιγγα ἡδέως ἠχοῦσιν.

ὁ μὲν Ἠγέστρατος τὸν φιλόν οὐκ ἀκούει, τὴν δὲ καὶ βοήν τῷν παιδιῶν καὶ τὸν τῆς σάλπιγγος ψόφον σαφῶς ἀκούει.


ἨΓΕΣΤΡΑΤΟΣ πολὺς τὸ ψόφος! διὰ τί ἀεὶ πολύν τὸν ψόφον ποιοῦσιν αἱ παιδιαί;

ἡσυχάζετε, ὦ παιδιά!

ἔπειτα δὲ, ἐξαίφνης οἱ τὲ ῤαψῳδοί καὶ αἱ γυναῖκες πολλοί τοὺς ψόφους ποιοῦσιν.

οἱ μὲν ῤαψῳδοί καλῶς ὁμηρίζουσιν, αἱ δὲ γυναῖκες διαλέγονται κακῶς.

ὁ Ἠγέστρατος σαφῶς ἀπορεῖ.

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jeidsath
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Re: ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

Post by jeidsath »

Lots of issues with accents, some with contraction, but just concentrating on big errors that I see (agreement, etc.):

παρά τῲ τοῦ Βυζαντίου ἐμπορίαις

γὰρ πολλοί [γαρ should always come second in a phrase]

παρά τῇ παιδιᾷ!, αἱ παιδιαί, etc., [τὸ παιδίον, τὰ παιδία is neuter, not first declension, female ἡ παιδιά means "child's game", and you don't seem to mean that?]

ἐξαίφνης οἱ τὲ ῤαψῳδοί καὶ αἱ γυναῖκες πολλοί τοὺς ψόφους ποιοῦσιν [πολλοι applies to the rhapsodists and women here, but did you really mean to say there were a lot of them, or did you mean to have it agree with something else in the sentence?]
"Here stuck the great stupid boys, who for the life of them could never master the accidence..."

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

Post by paveln »

You can find some errors in that text yourself with: Ancient Greek Spellchecker. How to do it, for example here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E01PtlyKhnM
You can find the correct word forms here:
https://www.lexigram.gr/lex/arch/βροντῶ

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Re: ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

Post by brunosprak »

jeidsath wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 12:09 pm Lots of issues with accents, some with contraction, but just concentrating on big errors that I see (agreement, etc.):
παρά τῲ τοῦ Βυζαντίου ἐμπορίαις
γὰρ πολλοί [γαρ should always come second in a phrase]
παρά τῇ παιδιᾷ!, αἱ παιδιαί, etc., [τὸ παιδίον, τὰ παιδία is neuter, not first declension, female ἡ παιδιά means "child's game", and you don't seem to mean that?]
ἐξαίφνης οἱ τὲ ῤαψῳδοί καὶ αἱ γυναῖκες πολλοί τοὺς ψόφους ποιοῦσιν [πολλοι applies to the rhapsodists and women here, but did you really mean to say there were a lot of them, or did you mean to have it agree with something else in the sentence?]
Thank you for answering, jeidsath!

I already expected lots of issues with accents, so that's ok for now. About "child", I mistook "τὸ παιδίον" for "ἡ παιδεία"! Big mistake there, it was so obviously wrong! =)

"γὰρ πολλοί", "τῲ ... ἐμπορίαις": oops, didn't see those ones!

"ἐξαίφνης οἱ τὲ ῤαψῳδοί καὶ αἱ γυναῖκες πολλοί τοὺς ψόφους ποιοῦσιν"

I actually meant "πολλοί" to agree with "ψόφους", so it should be "πολλούς" instead. Anyway, I think "ὀ ψόφος" is not the word I should use in this context here, since it's probably only about non-human noises.

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Re: ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

Post by brunosprak »

paveln wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 8:29 am You can find some errors in that text yourself with: Ancient Greek Spellchecker. How to do it, for example here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E01PtlyKhnM
You can find the correct word forms here:
https://www.lexigram.gr/lex/arch/βροντῶ
paveln, thanks for the suggestion! A spellchecker would be perfect. I'll install that one on my LibreOffice and check it out.

As for lexigram.gr, I received the message "Έχετε μία δωρεάν λέξη την ημέρα. Μπορείτε ξανά σε 23 ώρες και 57 λεπτά." which Google translates as "Have one free word a day. You can again in 23 hours and 57 minutes." Is this really a non-free resource?
Last edited by brunosprak on Sat May 29, 2021 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

Post by jeidsath »

brunosprak wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 8:12 pm Anyway, I think "ὀ ψόφος" is not the word I should use in this context here, since it's probably only about non-human noises.
Unintelligible "noises" or "sounds". But the LSJ examples contradict this "only non-human" idea. I'd think it would be fine to refer to the blare of a trumpet, but not the music of a trumpet.
"Here stuck the great stupid boys, who for the life of them could never master the accidence..."

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

Post by mwh »

Yes ψόφος is a noise, not the sort of sound associated with rhapsodes, nor with women.
That apart: πολλοὺς τοὺς ψόφους ποιοῦσιν means “they make the noises many.” Get rid of the article, for starters. But πολλοὺς ψόφους ποιοῦσιν means “they make lots of noises.” If you mean “they make lots of noise,” you want the singular, πολὺν ψόφον ποιοῦσιν, or πολὺν ποιοῦσι ψόφον, or ψόφον ποιοῦσι πολύν (all meaning slightly different things).

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Re: ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

Post by paveln »

brunosprak wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 8:14 pm
paveln wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 8:29 am You can find some errors in that text yourself with: Ancient Greek Spellchecker. How to do it, for example here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E01PtlyKhnM
You can find the correct word forms here:
https://www.lexigram.gr/lex/arch/βροντῶ
paveln, thanks for the suggestion! A spellchecker would be perfect. I'll install that one on my LibreOffice and check it out.

As for lexigram.gr, I received the message "Έχετε μία δωρεάν λέξη την ημέρα. Μπορείτε ξανά σε 23 ώρες και 57 λεπτά." which Google translates as "Have one free word a day. You can again in 23 hours and 57 minutes." Is this really a non-free resource?
It's not free, it costs about 5 or 7 euros a year.

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Re: ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

Post by jeidsath »

mwh wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:31 am Yes ψόφος is a noise, not the sort of sound associated with rhapsodes, nor with women.
If you aren't arguing for argument᾽s sake (which I suspect) this is incorrect. If women (or rhapsodes) are making a din, it's a ψόφος. It's not the source of the sound, it's the type of sound.
"Here stuck the great stupid boys, who for the life of them could never master the accidence..."

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

Post by brunosprak »

mwh wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:31 am Yes ψόφος is a noise, not the sort of sound associated with rhapsodes, nor with women.
That apart: πολλοὺς τοὺς ψόφους ποιοῦσιν means “they make the noises many.” Get rid of the article, for starters. But πολλοὺς ψόφους ποιοῦσιν means “they make lots of noises.” If you mean “they make lots of noise,” you want the singular, πολὺν ψόφον ποιοῦσιν, or πολὺν ποιοῦσι ψόφον, or ψόφον ποιοῦσι πολύν (all meaning slightly different things).
Thank you mwh. I see now, no article and in the singular.

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Re: ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

Post by dnl »

mwh wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:31 am If you mean “they make lots of noise,” you want the singular, πολὺν ψόφον ποιοῦσιν, or πολὺν ποιοῦσι ψόφον, or ψόφον ποιοῦσι πολύν (all meaning slightly different things).
Hi mwh,

Would you mind describing these slightly different meanings ?

Thx
D

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Re: ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

Post by mwh »

Sure. All three mean just about the same thing, of course, but the flexibility of Greek word order allows for different nuances or shades of salience. That’s the point I was making.

- πολὺν ψόφον ποιοῦσιν (adjective noun verb) is the most neutral and non-committal.
- πολὺν ποιοῦσι ψόφον, separating πολυν and ψοφον and with the verb sandwiched in the middle, is rather more elegant, drawing more individual attention to both the adjective and the noun and effacing the pivotal ποιουσιν, a blah sort of word.
- ψόφον ποιοῦσι πολύν is similar, but puts ψοφον up front and appends πολυν more or less as an afterthought.

And this is only three words, in isolation from wider context and ignoring other permutations.

You don’t need to get on top of these things right now. Just keep the flexibility in mind, and as you read more you’ll develop a sensitivity to the organization of the words. Greek word order is fairly free, but it’s not random.

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Re: ὁ Ἠγέστρατος καὶ ὁ Ζηνόθεμις ἐν Βυζαντίῳ

Post by dnl »

mwh wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:57 pm Sure. All three mean just about the same thing, of course, but the flexibility of Greek word order allows for different nuances or shades of salience. That’s the point I was making.

- πολὺν ψόφον ποιοῦσιν (adjective noun verb) is the most neutral and non-committal.
- πολὺν ποιοῦσι ψόφον, separating πολυν and ψοφον and with the verb sandwiched in the middle, is rather more elegant, drawing more individual attention to both the adjective and the noun and effacing the pivotal ποιουσιν, a blah sort of word.
- ψόφον ποιοῦσι πολύν is similar, but puts ψοφον up front and appends πολυν more or less as an afterthought.

And this is only three words, in isolation from wider context and ignoring other permutations.

You don’t need to get on top of these things right now. Just keep the flexibility in mind, and as you read more you’ll develop a sensitivity to the organization of the words. Greek word order is fairly free, but it’s not random.
Thanx
D

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