Translation of: THE CITY IS TAKEN-THE CAPTIVES ARE QUESTIONED

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Propertius
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Translation of: THE CITY IS TAKEN-THE CAPTIVES ARE QUESTIONED

Post by Propertius »

On pg. 220-222 of D'Ooge's book.

THE CITY IS TAKEN-THE CAPTIVES ARE QUESTIONED
After all the things necessary for a siege were prepared by Publius, it is deliberated in a meeting what plan for besieging the town they are to enter upon. Then, one of the centurions, a man very skillful in the art of war, said, “ I advise that we pile up a mound from that part where the entrance is most accessible and that we move a tower forward, and that we try to strike down the wall with a battering ram moved forward at the same time.” Since this plan pleased everyone, Caesar dismissed the meeting. Then, having encouraged the soldiers to remember past victories, he ordered that a mound be piled up and that a tower and a battering ram be moved forward. Nor was the plan without the townspeople. Some threw fire and all kind of weapons from the wall at the tower, others rolled down huge rocks upon the sheds and the battering ram. For a long time, there was very fierce fighting from both sides. Not even the wounded retreated. At last, about the third watch, Publius, whom Caesar had put in charge of that task, announced that part of the wall, having been weakened by the blows of the battering ram, had fallen. When he heard that, Caesar gives the signal; the soldiers rush in, and with a great slaughter of the enemy, they capture the town.
On the next day, after this town was besieged, the noblest of the captives are led before the headquarters to the general. He himself, being nobly dressed in a golden breastplate and purple cloak, questions the captives through a translator as follows: Who are you all?
Translator: The general asks who you all are.
Captives: We are sons of the king.
Translator: They say that they are sons of the king.
General: Why have you all inflicted so many injuries upon me?
Translator: He asks why you all have inflicted so many injuries upon him.
Captives: We did not inflict injuries upon him, but we waged war for our country. We have always been willing to be friends to the Romans, but the Romans tried to drive us out of our home and country without a reason.
Translator: They say that they have not inflicted injuries upon you, but that they waged war for their country. That they have always been willing to be friends to the Romans, but that the Romans tried to drive them out of their home and country without a reason.
General: Will you all remain loyal in future times after this rebellion is forgiven?
Then, you may be sure, the captives swore, as they shed tears of earnestness, that they will remain loyal, and Caesar sent them away unharmed to their home.

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Re: Translation of: THE CITY IS TAKEN-THE CAPTIVES ARE QUESTIONED

Post by mwh »

Very good, but try to avoid such translationese as “having been weakened,” when you could simply say “weakened.”

At the end, not “that they will remain loyal” but “that they would remain loyal” (English sequence rules!);
and domum not “to their home” but just “home.”

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Re: Translation of: THE CITY IS TAKEN-THE CAPTIVES ARE QUESTIONED

Post by bedwere »

Propertius wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:12 pm
THE CITY IS TAKEN-THE CAPTIVES ARE QUESTIONED
After all the things necessary for a siege are prepared by Publius, it is deliberated in a meeting what plan for besieging the town they are to enter upon. Then, one of the centurions, a man very skillful in the art of war, says, “ I advise that we pile up a mound from that part where the entrance is most accessible and that we move a tower forward, and that with a battering ram moved forward at the same time we try to strike down the wall .” Since this plan pleased everyone, Caesar dismissed the meeting. Then, having encouraged the soldiers to remember past victories, he ordered that a mound be piled up and that a tower and a battering ram be moved forward. Nor was the plan missed to the townspeople. Some threw fire and all kinds of weapons from the wall at the tower, others rolled down huge rocks upon the sheds and the battering ram. For a long time, there was very fierce fighting from both sides. Not even the wounded retreated. At last, about the third watch, Publius, whom Caesar had put in charge of that task, announced that part of the wall, having been weakened by the blows of the battering ram, had fallen. Having heard that, Caesar gives the signal; the soldiers rush in, and with a great slaughter of the enemy, they capture the town.
On the next day, this town having been taken, the noblest of the captives are led before the headquarters to the general. He himself, being nobly dressed in a golden breastplate and purple cloak, questions the captives through a translator as follows: Who are you all?
Translator: The general asks who you all are.
Captives: We are sons of the king.
Translator: They say that they are sons of the king.
General: Why have you all inflicted so many injuries upon me?
Translator: He asks why you all have inflicted so many injuries upon him.
Captives: We did not inflict injuries upon him, but we waged war for our country. We have always been willing to be friends to the Romans, but the Romans tried to drive us out of our home and country without a reason.
Translator: They say that they have not inflicted injuries upon you, but that they waged war for their country. That they have always been willing to be friends to the Romans, but that the Romans tried to drive them out of their home and country without a reason.
General: Will you all remain loyal in future times after this rebellion is forgiven?
Then, you may be sure, the captives swore, as they shed tears of earnestness, that they would remain loyal, and Caesar sent them away home unharmed.

Propertius
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Re: Translation of: THE CITY IS TAKEN-THE CAPTIVES ARE QUESTIONED

Post by Propertius »

Very good, but try to avoid such translationese as “having been weakened,” when you could simply say “weakened.”
Duly noted.
At the end, not “that they will remain loyal” but “that they would remain loyal” (English sequence rules!);
and domum not “to their home” but just “home.”
And I completely missed the fact that that was an indirect statement. I was having a little bit of trouble with the sequence rules since I did that lesson, which I did improve in. Just a slight regression. I'll keep a closer look out.

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Re: Translation of: THE CITY IS TAKEN-THE CAPTIVES ARE QUESTIONED

Post by Propertius »

bedwere wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:29 am
Propertius wrote: Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:12 pm
THE CITY IS TAKEN-THE CAPTIVES ARE QUESTIONED
After all the things necessary for a siege are prepared by Publius, it is deliberated in a meeting what plan for besieging the town they are to enter upon. Then, one of the centurions, a man very skillful in the art of war, says, “ I advise that we pile up a mound from that part where the entrance is most accessible and that we move a tower forward, and that with a battering ram moved forward at the same time we try to strike down the wall .” Since this plan pleased everyone, Caesar dismissed the meeting. Then, having encouraged the soldiers to remember past victories, he ordered that a mound be piled up and that a tower and a battering ram be moved forward. Nor was the plan missed to the townspeople. Some threw fire and all kinds of weapons from the wall at the tower, others rolled down huge rocks upon the sheds and the battering ram. For a long time, there was very fierce fighting from both sides. Not even the wounded retreated. At last, about the third watch, Publius, whom Caesar had put in charge of that task, announced that part of the wall, having been weakened by the blows of the battering ram, had fallen. Having heard that, Caesar gives the signal; the soldiers rush in, and with a great slaughter of the enemy, they capture the town.
On the next day, this town having been taken, the noblest of the captives are led before the headquarters to the general. He himself, being nobly dressed in a golden breastplate and purple cloak, questions the captives through a translator as follows: Who are you all?
Translator: The general asks who you all are.
Captives: We are sons of the king.
Translator: They say that they are sons of the king.
General: Why have you all inflicted so many injuries upon me?
Translator: He asks why you all have inflicted so many injuries upon him.
Captives: We did not inflict injuries upon him, but we waged war for our country. We have always been willing to be friends to the Romans, but the Romans tried to drive us out of our home and country without a reason.
Translator: They say that they have not inflicted injuries upon you, but that they waged war for their country. That they have always been willing to be friends to the Romans, but that the Romans tried to drive them out of their home and country without a reason.
General: Will you all remain loyal in future times after this rebellion is forgiven?
Then, you may be sure, the captives swore, as they shed tears of earnestness, that they would remain loyal, and Caesar sent them away home unharmed.
Why is it missed and not without in:

Neque oppidanis consilium defuit.

Missed doesn't really sound correct to me.

And genus is singular. But if I'm not mistaken, I do remember reading somewhere that when that word is used with a genitive in the plural as it is in this case (genus telorum it is translated in the plural. Can you just confirmed that with me?

Gratias tibi ago.

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Re: Translation of: THE CITY IS TAKEN-THE CAPTIVES ARE QUESTIONED

Post by bedwere »

I'll revert to kind (it sounded better in English, but let's be literal not to confuse the user of the key).
To have without does not make sense to me, but even my translation does not seem right to me anymore:

Nor was a plan absent to the townspeople (i.e., they did have a plan).

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Re: Translation of: THE CITY IS TAKEN-THE CAPTIVES ARE QUESTIONED

Post by Propertius »

bedwere wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:30 pm I'll revert to kind (it sounded better in English, but let's be literal not to confuse the user of the key).
To have without does not make sense to me, but even my translation does not seem right to me anymore:

Nor was a plan absent to the townspeople (i.e., they did have a plan).
Would it make sense to translate it as:

Nor were the townspeople without a plan.

I'm translating defuit as without because in the dictionary it's translated as lacking/wanting, which pretty much mean the same thing.

And what was confusing me is the usage of that verb, it being a compound verb which requires a dative for its subject, and since the dative is the indirect object of a sentence, I didn't think that the noun in the dative was the subject of the sentence. Isn't that what's going on here? Take this for another example:

Dominus pāscit mē et nihil mihī dēerit.

The Lord is my shepherd and nothing shall I want.
(literally, “The Lord tends me as a shepherd and nothing for me will be lacking.”)

I got that off of wiktionary.

If the part in bold is rearranged, you get:

I shall want nothing.

Now, if one were to translate that sentence back to Latin, one would assume I is in the nominative, but the verb requires the subject of the sentence (I) to be in the dative, i.e. in the case of the indirect object, which one would never assume to be the subject of the sentence.
Last edited by Propertius on Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Translation of: THE CITY IS TAKEN-THE CAPTIVES ARE QUESTIONED

Post by bedwere »

Yes, it would. If you like it better, we'll use it.

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Re: Translation of: THE CITY IS TAKEN-THE CAPTIVES ARE QUESTIONED

Post by Propertius »

bedwere wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:53 am Yes, it would. If you like it better, we'll use it.
By all means, if you approve of it, use it. I'm the one that's still learning.

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