Aetos wrote: ↑Wed May 13, 2020 3:20 pm
Now let's look at the English-Greek translation exercise (in my edition it's 2g):
1. What form of πονέω should you use here? πόνει or πονεῖ ?
2 ὄδε - I think you got this out of your vocabulary. There is a difference between ὅδε and ὁ δε. The first one is a demonstrative pronoun meaning "this here". The second one means "and he". In this instance, ὁ functions as a personal pronoun "he" and δε as a postpositive.
What is the object of καλεῖ ? What case should that object be in?
Remember to accent μηκετι. This adverb just means "no longer", but we could call Meketi "ἡ τῶν μηκέτι πεπονημένων πόλις"
ἐλθή - I'm betting this is a typo.
What gender is ἄροτρον and what article should it take?
3. αροτρον -see question 2.
μέν should go after ἐγώ and before γάρ. μέν follows the word being contrasted, in this case ἐγώ.
4. Where would you place "so" in this sentence?
What is the correct form of the verb "he takes"?
αροτρον!
On sentence 1, have a look at the Grammar sections, both 1 and 2 in the chapter 2(α).
Sentences 2&3 look good.
Sentence 4 - This really hasn't been addressed in your textbook, but as I mentioned in sentence 3, μεν usually follows immediately after the word it's contrasting. In sentence 3, that word was ἐγώ being contrasted with σύ. In this sentence it's ὁ Δικαιόπολις and ὁ δοῦλος. A good example of this is the first sentence in your reading selection in Chapter 2(β):
ὀ μὲν οὖν Δικαιόπολις ἐλαύνει τοὺς βοῦς , ὁ δὲ Ξανθίας ὄπισθεν βαδίζει καὶ φέρει τὸ ἄρητρον.
In Greek, it's normal to place these words (μέν, δέ, οὖν - known as postpositives) between the article and its noun. Why μέν before οὖν ? I really don't have a good answer for you. Μέν followed by οὖν (μὲν οὖν)is a combination you'll see a lot and has a couple of uses. In this case each particle has its own force and indicates a transition to a new subject. In English, we do this with the expression "And so," or "So, on the one hand....". In Greek, it's done with μὲν οὖν.
So, the answer regarding πονέω is both and I can use which one I want? Because perseus.tufts.edu seems to be saying πόνει and πονεῖ are interchangeable.
If not, what is the answer? I just have no idea except maybe πονέω might be a proclitic, if I had to read the part about Proclitics, which I could also be wrong about.
malolosgreencat wrote: ↑Fri May 15, 2020 5:50 am
So, the answer regarding πονέω is both and I can use which one I want? Because perseus.tufts.edu seems to be saying πόνει and πονεῖ are interchangeable.
If not, what is the answer? I just have no idea except maybe πονέω might be a proclitic, if I had to read the part about Proclitics, which I could also be wrong about.
Short answer: no, they're not interchangeable. Each form has a specific meaning and these are not proclitics.
Perseus is a wonderful resource, but you don't need it to answer this question. The answer is in Chapter 2 of Athenaze in the Grammar Sections titled:
1. Verb Forms: Indicative Mood; First, Second, and Third Persons Singular
2. The Imperative
There are 3 examples of verbs shown: λύω, φιλέω, εἰμί
For λύω and φιλέω, you are shown how to take the stem (λῡ-, φιλέ-) and add personal endings to show which person is performing the action. Look at the endings for φιλέω. As you remember from Chapter 1, (See Verb Forms:Endings) the verb φιλέω is a contract verb. A contract verb is simply a verb where contraction has taken place. Contraction means that where you have two vowels or a vowel and diphthong next to each other, you contract them into a single long vowel or a diphthong. So in the case of φιλέω, for the 3rd person singular ending, you see φιλέ-ει > φιλεῖ. What's happened is that 'έει' has contracted to εῖ' . If you now look at the Imperative form, you'll see φίλε-ε contracts to φίλει (εε becomes ει). So why did the accent shift from φιλέ-ει (φιλεῖ) to φίλε-ε (φίλει)? Remember we said the accent of verbs is recessive? In φιλέ-ει, the last syllable is long, so the accent can only go back to the penult.(next to last). In φίλε-ε, the last syllable is short, so the accent can go all the way back to the antepenult (second to last). You can also see how the recessive accent rule works with φίλει. There's a reason you see a circumflex over the ει in φιλεῖ, but I'll save that for another time.
Now, how you could apply this to πονέω?
malolosgreencat wrote:So, the answer regarding πονέω is both and I can use which one I want? Because perseus.tufts.edu seems to be saying πόνει and πονεῖ are interchangeable.
The Perseus word tool is useful if you know enough to interpret the results and to spot when the output is wrong. I don't advise that you rely on it or any other on-line look up resources. Even Logeion which is generally more helpful than Perseus has its limitations.
In the text you have already read " ἐλθε δεῦρο, ὦ δοῦλε ἀργέ, καί πόνει ". Can you analyse " πόνει ", ie what form is it?
In an exercise you have done you had: " ὁ δοῦλος ἐν τῷ οἰκῳ πονεῖ ". Likewise here can you analyse " πονεῖ "?
Can you now see the difference?
Edit
I can see that while I was typing out the Greek Aetos has kindly responded. He has answered these questions but they are the sort of questions you need to ask yourself. Questions are more important than answers.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.
Ok. So the πονει in question #1 is not an order to someone but is a statement of fact so...indicative mood. So...πονέ plus ει becomes πονεῖ because e plus ei equals ei with a circumflex.
So the correct answer is ὁ Δικαιόπολις οὐκέτι πονεῖ ἀλλὰ λύει τοὺς βοῦς. I think.
malolosgreencat wrote: ↑Fri May 15, 2020 12:45 pm
Ok. So the πονει in question #1 is not an order to someone but is a statement of fact so...indicative mood. So...πονέ plus ει becomes πονεῖ because e plus ei equals ei with a circumflex.
So the correct answer is ὁ Δικαιόπολις οὐκέτι πονεῖ ἀλλὰ λύει τοὺς βοῦς. I think.
Is that right?
Correct!
seneca2008 wrote: ↑Fri May 15, 2020 11:21 am
I can see that while I was typing out the Greek Aetos has kindly responded. He has answered these questions but they are the sort of questions you need to ask yourself. Questions are more important than answers.
Seneca is absolutely right. Before tackling the exercises, you need to make sure you understand the material. As Seneca points out, the way you do this is by asking yourself questions. To some extent, I've been anticipating some of those questions rather than letting you formulate them on your own. Your approach should be to read the material, make sure you understand it, quiz yourself on the content (e.g. what are the forms I've learned so far for λύω, φιλῶ, εἰμί ? Why are they formed that way? What are their functions?) then and only then do the exercises. The exercises should serve as a confirmation of your understanding, rather than as a starting point for learning new material.
Goddamn this one is extremely long for me. Took me from May 15 to now to finish, through a painful tongue, through sleepiness, through being distracted by Love Live, through power blackouts and the heat of this summer.
Gawd I hope I don't forget anything.
And currently typing this while listening to Love Live songs in the background.
Rough translation: On the one hand Dikaiopolis he drives the oxen, on the other hand the oxen they are dragging the plow, on the other hand Xanthias is sowing the seed.
Final translation: Dikaiopolis drives the oxen, the oxen are dragging the plow, and Xanthias is sowing the seed.
Rough translation: On the one hand so/then Dikaiopolis the oxen he calls and, "Hurry, o Oxen," he/she says; "Don't they stay/wait." On the other hand the oxen still they stay/wait.
Final translation: So Dikaiopolis calls the oxen on the one hand and says "Hurry, oxes. Don't stay." On the other hand the oxen still stayed.
Rough translation: he calls so/then the slave and "come! here, o Xanthias,: he says, "and help; the stone for big/large/great the plow is obstructing, And/but the oxen wait/stay.
Final translation: So he calls the slave and he says "Come here, Xanthias and help; for the big stone is obstructing the plow, and the oxen stay.
Rough Translation: So/then Xanthias slowly he go toward/approach but not help he looks/sees for towards the stone and "big/large/great is the stone, o master," he said; "look, not possible is to lift it/him."
Final Translation: So Xanthias slowly approaches but didn't help; he looks towards the stone and says "The stone is big, master, look, it is impossible to lift it."
ὁ δὲ Δικαιόπολις, "μὴ ἀργὸς ἴσθι," φησίν, "ἀλλὰ συλλάμβανε. δυνατὸν γάρ ἐστιν αἴρειν τὸν λίθον."
Rough Translation: and/but Dikaiopolis "Don't be lazy," he says, "but help. Possible for is to lift the stone."
Final Translation: But Dikaiopolis says "Don't be lazy but help. It is possible to lift the stone."
Rough Translation: while and/but they are carrying it/him, stumbles Xanthias and drops the stone; and/but the stone you fall towards upon Dikaiopolis' foot.
Final Translation: And while they are carrying it, Xanthias stumbles and drops the stonbe; and the stone falls upon Dikaiopolis' foot.
Rough Translation: and/but Xanthias, "Why so/thus hard if, o master?" he says; "not for responsible I am I? big/large/great for is the stone and not possible is it to carry."
Final Translation: And Xanthias says, "Why so harsh, o master? I am not responsible, for the stone is large and it is not possible to carry.
Rough Translation: then/thereafter and/but on the one hand Dikaiopolis he drives the oxen, on the other hand the oxen no longer stay/wait but they are dragging the plow.
Final Translation: And thereafter Dikaiopolis drives the oxen, the oxen stay no longer but are dragging the plow.
We've talked a little bit about this before: μέν...δε is not always translated "on the one hand....on the other hand". Here μέν does not need to be translated. It needs to be there in Greek, because it's pointing ahead to a contradictory situation (antithesis), but in English we would phrase this differently. "So Dikaiopolis calls to the oxen and says: "hurry up, oxen! don't just stand there!", but the oxen still stay put."
All in all, not bad! There are a few typos in the Greek, but for the most part, your translations look good.
For extra credit, look up the plural of ox!
Aetos wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 3:46 pm
αἴρει vs. αἱρεῖ - can you tell the difference?
The left one is pronounced airei and means carry or lift. The right one is pronounced hairei and means...take with the hand/grasp/seize according to perseus.
Word Study 3A
1. What does lithograph mean? What does γράφω mean?
Lithograph is a print on a plane surface where the blank areas are ink repellent and the image areas are ink receptive. γράφω means to print.
2. What is a monolith? What does μόνος mean?
Monolith is a signle great stone often in the form of an obelisk or column. μόνος means single.
3. What does megalithic mean?
Megalithic is an adjective where one is described to be like a megalith, a large and rough stone used as a monument or building block by prehistoric people.
4. What is a megaphone? What does ἡ φωνή mean?
Megaphone is a cone shaped device used to direct or intensify a voice. ἡ φωνή means the sound.
malolosgreencat wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 4:15 pm
Aetos wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 10:46 am
αἴρει vs. αἱρεῖ - can you tell the difference?
The left one is pronounced airei and means carry or lift. The right one is pronounced hairei and means...take with the hand/grasp/seize according to perseus.
...did I miswrite the word?
αἴρω does mean lift, but it doesn't mean carry. If you look in the vocabulary in the back of your book, it should only indicate "lift". I looked in the online Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon as well and only found lift or raise as possible meanings. Considering the story, which would make more sense- carry or lift?
Rough Translation: So/then Xanthias slowly he go toward/approach but not help he looks/sees for towards the stone and "big/large/great is the stone, o master," he said; "look, not possible is to lift it/him."
Final Translation: So Xanthias slowly approaches but didn't help; he looks towards the stone and says "The stone is big, master, look, it is impossible to lift it."
I think you were trying to come up with a more polished translation, which is good; you should still respect the tenses. There will come a point where you'll discover that there are times when we do use a different tense in English to express the meaning of Greek verb but that'll be coming up in chapter 11.
malolosgreencat wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 4:15 pm
1. What does lithograph mean? What does γράφω mean?
Lithograph is a print on a plane surface where the blank areas are ink repellent and the image areas are ink receptive. γράφω means to print.
I was watching a programme the other day called "How it's made" and the topic was lithography. They actually use a real stone! It can be done with a metal plate, but the original technique employed a smooth sheet of limestone.
Not bad!
Still need to work on that labelling, though:
2. προσχωροῦσι, βλέπουσι - IV, TV, or LV?
3. φησίν - IV, TV, or LV?
4. τὸν λίθον - not a subject, what is it?
5. ἐστίν - IV, TV, or LV? αἴρειν - IV,TV, LV, IMP or INF?
Aetos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:28 pm
Not bad!
Still need to work on that labelling, though:
2. προσχωροῦσι, βλέπουσι - IV, TV, or LV?
3. φησίν - IV, TV, or LV?
4. τὸν λίθον - not a subject, what is it?
5. ἐστίν - IV, TV, or LV? αἴρειν - IV,TV, LV, IMP or INF?
Translations look good. Keep up the good work!
2. Uhm, TV both of them. I guess.
3. IV.
4. Complement?
5. ἐστίν=LV αἴρειν=IV
Oh, also just a question for you folks.
Physically, what is the size of the Athenaze Book? As in...a page is how many inches or centimeters per side?
malolosgreencat wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:16 am
4. Complement?
5. ἐστίν=LV αἴρειν=IV
4. τὸν λίθον : What case is this and when is it used?
5. ἐστίν is a linking verb. Here are some questions to ask yourself about αἴρειν:
a. what does it mean?
b. what form is it? what forms have you learned so far? why does it end in -ειν ?
EDIT: I missed this in sentence 5, but there is a complement that needs labelling-see if you can determine which word it is.
As far as the dimensions of the book are concerned, if you're asking about your version, you can always break out a ruler , or if you don't have a ruler, you can go to the Amazon site and see the dimensions of the book by scrolling down the product information page. Here it is for the Second Edition: https://www.amazon.com/Athenaze-Introdu ... 149&sr=1-3
Aetos wrote: ↑Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:39 pm
4. τὸν λίθον : What case is this and when is it used?
5. ἐστίν is a linking verb. Here are some questions to ask yourself about αἴρειν:
a. what does it mean?
b. what form is it? what forms have you learned so far? why does it end in -ειν ?
EDIT: I missed this in sentence 5, but there is a complement that needs labelling-see if you can determine which word it is.
4. Accusative Case, so its a Direct Object.
5. Uhm, it means to lift. So...indicative mood because it is the equivalent of a verb that comes after to...so... αἴρειν is the complement.
Sentence 4: correct!
Sentence 5: In Chapter 3a, have a look at Grammar 1c.
It appears we need to clarify a couple of concepts. To be fair, I think the book could do a little better at explaining what an infinitive is. We use infinitives in English frequently but we don't think about how they differ from other forms of a verb. We just know we can use them to express purpose or to label an action or by adding a helping verb, express necessity (e.g. I have to go). We know that to form one in English, we usually have to add the preposition to. But why do we call it an infinitive? Before we answer that, let's go back to other forms you've learnt, namely the indicative and the imperative. These moods fall into the category of finite verbs. Two other moods that you'll be learning about later, the subjunctive and the optative, also fall into this category. Why are they finite? Well, the word "finite" implies these verbs have some kind of limit. Can you think of what kind of limits a verb might have? How about person(1st,2nd,3rd)? Now let's go back to the infinitive-is it limited in person? Is there such a thing as a 1st person singular or plural infinitive? No. The word "infinitive" basically means something that has no limits and in that way it is different from finite verbs, which are limited in some way. OK, so that's how we come up with the name "infinitive", but what purpose does it serve in Greek? It is used as a verbal noun. When you want to use a word that represents some kind of action, you can take that action and by changing the form of the verb, turn it into a noun(This type of noun is called a substantive). So let's take the verb "lift". In English, we add "to" and we get "to lift". In Greek, this is done by changing the verb ending only. We don't add any other words. Let's create the present infinitive of the greek verb for "lift". What's the 1st person indicative? αἴρω. What's the stem? αἴρ-. What ending do we add for the infinitive? -ειν. (Strictly speaking, it's -εν, but that's a topic for another time). So, what's the present infinitive of αἴρω? αἴρειν. The infinitive is a very important form to master in Greek. Fortunately, there is only one form for each tense and voice (due to its "infinite" nature), but it is used in a number of "grammatical constructions" (more on this as they come up) which are employed extensively in literature and especially in Attic prose. Get used to it, you'll be seeing it a lot.
OK, that's all I'm going to say about the infinitive (for now!). So let's talk about complements. This will be a much shorter discussion:
I would like you to look up the term "grammatical complement" and then label this sentence, using the same directions you followed for your other sentences:
μέγας ἐστὶν ὁ λίθος
Aetos wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:13 pm
Sentence 4: correct!
Sentence 5: In Chapter 3a, have a look at Grammar 1c.
It appears we need to clarify a couple of concepts. To be fair, I think the book could do a little better at explaining what an infinitive is. We use infinitives in English frequently but we don't think about how they differ from other forms of a verb. We just know we can use them to express purpose or to label an action or by adding a helping verb, express necessity (e.g. I have to go). We know that to form one in English, we usually have to add the preposition to. But why do we call it an infinitive? Before we answer that, let's go back to other forms you've learnt, namely the indicative and the imperative. These moods fall into the category of finite verbs. Two other moods that you'll be learning about later, the subjunctive and the optative, also fall into this category. Why are they finite? Well, the word "finite" implies these verbs have some kind of limit. Can you think of what kind of limits a verb might have? How about person(1st,2nd,3rd)? Now let's go back to the infinitive-is it limited in person? Is there such a thing as a 1st person singular or plural infinitive? No. The word "infinitive" basically means something that has no limits and in that way it is different from finite verbs, which are limited in some way. OK, so that's how we come up with the name "infinitive", but what purpose does it serve in Greek? It is used as a verbal noun. When you want to use a word that represents some kind of action, you can take that action and by changing the form of the verb, turn it into a noun(This type of noun is called a substantive). So let's take the verb "lift". In English, we add "to" and we get "to lift". In Greek, this is done by changing the verb ending only. We don't add any other words. Let's create the present infinitive of the greek verb for "lift". What's the 1st person indicative? αἴρω. What's the stem? αἴρ-. What ending do we add for the infinitive? -ειν. (Strictly speaking, it's -εν, but that's a topic for another time). So, what's the present infinitive of αἴρω? αἴρειν. The infinitive is a very important form to master in Greek. Fortunately, there is only one form for each tense and voice (due to its "infinite" nature), but it is used in a number of "grammatical constructions" (more on this as they come up) which are employed extensively in literature and especially in Attic prose. Get used to it, you'll be seeing it a lot.
OK, that's all I'm going to say about the infinitive (for now!). So let's talk about complements. This will be a much shorter discussion:
I would like you to look up the term "grammatical complement" and then label this sentence, using the same directions you followed for your other sentences:
μέγας ἐστὶν ὁ λίθος
μέγας ἐστὶν ὁ λίθος
c s
So...
μέγας = C
ἐστὶν = LV
ὁ λίθος = S
...did I get it right?
The special instructions on the words in the parenthesis for that one made me suspicious of the others, so...I resorted to just photographing the entire exercise after I copied the instructions just in case I mistook what I'm being instructed to do.
Last edited by malolosgreencat on Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Before we go over this exercise, have a look in your teacher's guide to see if you have the answers to exercise 3c. That is the number for this exercise in my edition and your teacher's handbook. That might save us some time.
Aetos wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:28 pm
Not bad!
Still need to work on that labelling, though:
2. προσχωροῦσι, βλέπουσι - IV, TV, or LV?
3. φησίν - IV, TV, or LV?
4. τὸν λίθον - not a subject, what is it?
5. ἐστίν - IV, TV, or LV? αἴρειν - IV,TV, LV, IMP or INF?
Translations look good. Keep up the good work!
2. Uhm, TV both of them. I guess.
3. IV.
4. Complement?
5. ἐστίν=LV αἴρειν=IV
Oh, also just a question for you folks.
Physically, what is the size of the Athenaze Book? As in...a page is how many inches or centimeters per side?
Sorry, Malo, I missed this, but the answer to Sentence 2 in exercise 3a is also incorrect. προσχωροῦσι and βλέπουσι are both intransitive. Neither of them take a direct object. βλέπω is a verb that can have either a transitive or an intransitive meaning. If we say "βλέπει τὸν ἄροτρον" , then the verb is transitive; it takes τὸν ἄροτρον as its direct object. On the other hand, if we say "βλέπει πρὸς τὸν ἄροτρον", then the verb is being used intransitively and is being modified by the adverbial clause "πρὸς τὸν ἄροτρον" προσχωρέω is only used intransitively. Its simple form, however, χωρέω, does actually have both usages: intransitively it can mean "come" or "go", whereas transitively it means "contain" or "hold".
It's best not to think too much about grading your performance. Yes, there are errors in each sentence, but virtually all of them are related to the Grammar section of the lesson. In that section, you are introduced to some new verb forms: plurals and infinitives. The first exercise (recognising infinitives)in my book has you find three infinitives in your reading selection at the beginning of the chapter. The second exercise (Greek to English translation) gives you practice in recognising and translating the new forms from the Grammar section. You translated these forms correctly from Greek to English, but in the third exercise (English to Greek translation) for some reason you couldn't go the other way. This is a perfect example of active versus passive learning. Translating from Greek to English is mostly a recognition exercise (passive learning). Translating from English to Greek is going one step further and applying what you've learned. This is active learning. In the third exercise, you have to show that you can form plurals and infinitives. This process involves remembering what you've learned. The key to remembering what you've learned is understanding principles and applying them. Before you attempt the exercise, you should be able to:
1. Say and write every form you've learnt from memory, e.g. λύω, λύεις, λύει, λύουσι(ν)
2.Understand how the forms are made, e.g. what is the process for making a third person plural form (present indicative)? How do we form an infinitive? How do we form an imperative? How is the plural form of the imperative different from the singular?
We've talked about this before-take your time and digest the material before attempting the exercises. One of the great advantages to self-learning is that you can set your own pace. You don't have to rush or keep up with any one else.
1. The oxen are sleeping in the field.
τοὺς βοῦς καθεύδουσιν ἐν τῷ ἀγρῷ.
2. Come here and drive out (use ἐξελαυνω)* the oxen, slaves (ὦ δοῦλοι)**
*Use the correct form of the word given in the parentheses.
**Use the words given in parentheses without changing them.
ἐλθὲ δεῦρο καὶ ἐξελαυνουσιν τοὺς βοῦς, ὦ δοῦλοι.
3. They take the goad (τὸ κέντρον) and slowly approach the oxen (τοῖς βουσί(ν))
εἰσάγουσιν τὸ κέντρον καὶ βραδέως προσβαίνουσι τοῖς βουσί.
4. Hurry, oxen.; don't sleep in the field.
σπεύδετε, ὦ βόες· μή καθεύδουσιν ἐν τῷ αγρῷ.
5. It is not possible to drive out (use ἐξελαύνω) the oxen; for they are strong (ἰσχῦροί; begin your clause with this word.)
ἰσχῦροὶ τοὺς βοῦς· οὐ δυνατὸν ἐξελαύνω τοὺς βοῦς.
First off, Malo, did you check your answers against the answers in the Teacher's handbook? I will assume that you did, but that leaves me rather puzzled, especially with sentence 1.
1. What is the subject of this sentence? What case of the noun (βοῦς) and corresponding article does the subject take?
2. "come here and drive out...". What mood are these verbs? What person and number ( 1st, 2nd, 3rd -singular or plural)?
3. εἰσάγω can mean "take in", but it's used in the sense of leading something into an area, like a sheep's pen or fold. The word here should be λαμβάνω. This is the word used in Lesson 2. προσβαίνουσι is not used this way in Attic Greek. The word from your lesson is προσχωρέω with the dative.
4. "don't sleep" - what mood is this? What person and number ( 1st, 2nd, 3rd -singular or plural)?
5. "to drive out" what kind of verb is this (indicative?imperative?infinitive?).
The instruction for ἰσχυροί is where to place this word in its clause, not its sentence. Why do they have you do this? (Hint: how do you say "for" in Greek?)
Malo, I've said this before and I'll say it again: It will help a great deal if you review English grammar. As a matter of fact, there are some Greek programs that start off exactly that way-here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37uQCuN ... jT&index=3
...I spent days just memorizing anything that seemed related on grammar monster and the grammar parts of Athenaze that I already went through so I could try answering with no looking back, only going by memory.
And speaking of memory I read the answers in the teacher's handbook but didn't try to memorize the answers because that would just defeat the point of memorizing to learn...to my understanding of learning.
Hi Malo,
We'll get this sorted-I'll try to give you a checklist of items that you should know at this stage. I'm not familiar with grammar monster, but if it's an app that helps you review and memorise, that's fine. It's rather late here on the east coast of the U.S., so I'll try to put it together tomorrow morning (my time zone), which will be this evening in your time zone. Between now and then, try to answer the questions I raised regarding each sentence in your exercise. For sentence 1, you'll find the answer in the very first grammar section of your textbook in Chapter 1A, ὁ Δικαιόπολις. When I say answer, what I mean is you will learn what you need to know to answer the question. It would be a very good idea at this point to review each grammar section up to this point - Chapter 1A, Chapter 2A,2B and 3A.
We've talked about how to use the Teacher's Handbook. You're right- you shouldn't be memorising answers from the handbook. You only use it to check your work. After you've completed the exercise, you can then go to the handbook and check the answers. When you see that your answer doesn't match what you see in the handbook, then you need to figure out why your answer is different. This usually involves rereading the grammar section that the exercise is based on.
Hi Malo,
Here is a "checklist" for items in Chapter 1A. I will do this for each grammar section in Chapter 2 tomorrow. After that, let's see if you can create your own. The idea is that you can look at each item on this list and know what it means and what you should remember about it. I do this myself for whatever I happen to be studying, whether it be a new aircraft or the verb λύω.
So here's the list:
Checklist for Chapter 1A:
1. Verb Forms: Endings
- Function of endings
- Number - sing. or pl.
- Person - 1st, 2nd, 3rd
- Regular vs. Contract verb (Definition of contract verb)
- Irregular verb "to be"
- 3rd person singular forms λύ-ει, φιλέ-ει>φιλεῖ, ἐστί (ν) - formation and meaning
-νυ movable
2. Nouns: Gender, Case and Agreement
- 3 genders-masc.,fem., neut.
- Case-
- Stems and endings (Functions?)
- Function of Nominative and Accusative
- Subject, Verb, Complement, Object in sentences.
- Meaning not dependent on word order.
3. Agreement of:
- Nouns, Adjectives and the definite article
Let's take the first item in Verb Forms- "-Function of endings". When you see this item, you should be asking yourself "What is the function of endings in Greek verbs? You should then answer (to yourself) "They show person and number" As you move down the list, you should be able to say to yourself "Yes, I know that" or "Hm, I don't remember". If you don't remember or don't understand, go back and reread. I remember when I was studying a particularly complicated system, I would sometimes reread a particular section 5 or 6 times before I truly understood it!
I hope this helps.
Aetos wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:34 pm
First off, Malo, did you check your answers against the answers in the Teacher's handbook? I will assume that you did, but that leaves me rather puzzled, especially with sentence 1.
1. What is the subject of this sentence? What case of the noun (βοῦς) and corresponding article does the subject take?
2. "come here and drive out...". What mood are these verbs? What person and number ( 1st, 2nd, 3rd -singular or plural)?
3. εἰσάγω can mean "take in", but it's used in the sense of leading something into an area, like a sheep's pen or fold. The word here should be λαμβάνω. This is the word used in Lesson 2. προσβαίνουσι is not used this way in Attic Greek. The word from your lesson is προσχωρέω with the dative.
4. "don't sleep" - what mood is this? What person and number ( 1st, 2nd, 3rd -singular or plural)?
5. "to drive out" what kind of verb is this (indicative?imperative?infinitive?).
The instruction for ἰσχυροί is where to place this word in its clause, not its sentence. Why do they have you do this? (Hint: how do you say "for" in Greek?)
Malo, I've said this before and I'll say it again: It will help a great deal if you review English grammar. As a matter of fact, there are some Greek programs that start off exactly that way-here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37uQCuN ... jT&index=3
Ok...trying to answer this one first...
1. The subject is 'the oxen'. So...nominative. And the nominative of the oxen is...οἱ βόες, because it is the only example I have seen so far that has the ὁ used in the nominative forms of other examples of nouns.
Edit:
Oh. So the table of plural cases are in the lesson after this one...was I supposed to always read the next lesson ahead of answering an exercise in the present lesson?
2. Uhm...Imperative. 3rd person plural? So...ἔλθετε δεῦρο καὶ ἐξελαυνουσιν?
4. "Don't sleep" is...imperative. Person is...2nd? And plural. So...μή καθεύδετε?
5. "To drive out" could be...infinitive, because it has 'to' in the meaning and only infinitives have that at the start. As for ἰσχῦροι...oh, I am supposed to use γάρ there? Ok. So it should be...fast forward to where the table for plural verbs are...οὐ δυνατὸν ἐξελαύνειν ἐστι τοὺς βοῦς· ἰσχῦροὶ γάρ...εἰσίν is they so εἰσίν.
...Ugh, I can't help feeling so dumb here. I never considered fast forwarding through the book to see the tables.
@Aetos, uh when you said create my own checklist you mean I should do it without copying yours for Chapter 1A? A checklist based on what I understood or think I'm learning or seeing from the Grammar Sections?
malolosgreencat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:42 am
Oh. So the table of plural cases are in the lesson after this one...was I supposed to always read the next lesson ahead of answering an exercise in the present lesson?
I think that's a mistake on the authors' part. They shouldn't be giving you a sentence for translation based on material you haven't covered yet, although in this case it's not too far forward in the book; it's at the beginning of section 3B.
Sentence 2: Imperative, yes, but for only for one verb? Is there one command here or two? Don't be mislead by the form of the verb in parentheses. Commonly, verbs are referred to in the 1st person singular, present indicative. You're expected to supply the correct form of the verb in your answer.
Sentence 4: Correct!
Sentence 5: The forms are correct, I would rearrange the order a little bit, though; ἐστιν goes with δυνατόν and ἐξελαύνειν goes with its object, τοὺς βοῦς, so: οὐ δυνατόν ἐστιν ἐξελαύνειν τοὺς βοῦς· ἰσχυροί γάρ εἰσιν. Also, Malo, I know you want to show the ypsilon in ἰσχυροί as long, but please don't do it with a tilde; that's used for the circumflex only.
malolosgreencat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:42 am
@Aetos, uh when you said create my own checklist you mean I should do it without copying yours for Chapter 1A? A checklist based on what I understood or think I'm learning or seeing from the Grammar Sections?
The checklist I wrote up for Chapter 1A is just for 1A. Essentially, it's an outline of the important points in the section, points that should be understood and remembered or in some cases, memorised. You'll want to do one for each grammar section. I'm going to do one for Chapter 2 and you'll see what I mean.
O.K., here's the checklist for the grammar sections in Chapter 2. If you compare this with your text, you'll see it lists the terms you should be familiar with and the forms you should know. See if you can make one up for Chapter 3. Once you have read through the grammar section, list the major points or items in that section just as I have done in Chapters 1 and 2 and then look at the list and see what you can remember about each point. You'll want to include all new forms and new terms as well as rules. Try to keep the list as short and concise as possible; there should be just enough information to "jog" your memory. If you like, you can send the list to me as a PM, and I'll look it over and make any appropriate suggestions.
Checklist Chapter 2 Grammar
1. Verb Forms - Indicative Mood, 1st,2nd,3rd Persons Singular
- Definition of Mood
- Definition of Indicative Mood
- Function of verb endings (what do they do? how do they change the meaning of the verb?)
- Present Indicative verbs can be translated 3 different ways; what are those ways?
- Conjugate λύω, φιλέω and εἰμί in their singular present indicative forms. (1st,2nd,3rd persons)
- No subject pronoun needed except for emphasis.
2. The Imperative
- Definition of Imperative mood
- Imperative of σπεύδω, φιλέω and εἰμί - 2nd personal singular
- Negative commands (how to make a command negative)
3. Articles, Adjectives, and Nouns; Singular, All Cases
- Decline ὁ καλός ἀγρός, τὸ καλὸν δένδρον (be able to write and say from memory each form of the article, adjective and noun)
- Neuter nominative, accusative and vocative endings are the same.
- Function of each case (how are each of these forms used in a sentence?):
a. nominative - used to denote the subject of a verb or a predicate complement (of the verb "to be"). (you fill in the rest!)
b. genitive
c. dative
d. accusative
e. vocative
Ok, only got back now because I was busy with the doctor's advice to sleep damn early and the medicine...this is what I got as a checklist for Chapter 3A based on what I see when I read it.
Chapter 3A Grammar
Verb Forms: 3rd Person Plural Imperative, Indicative and Infinitives
- 3rd Person Plural Indicative
- Plural Imperative Forms
- What is infinitive?
- Infinitive Form
Did I get everything right there?
Also, the hell? Oral herpes? I was sure I was eating clean food! I always pick the food I eat carefully. Damn.
malolosgreencat wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:40 pm
Chapter 3A Grammar
Verb Forms: 3rd Person Plural Imperative, Indicative and Infinitives
- 3rd Person Plural Indicative
- Plural Imperative Forms
- What is infinitive?
- Infinitive Form
You've covered the main areas. Now when you see "3rd Person Plural Indicative", that should trigger the following questions:
How is it formed? By adding -ουσι (ν) the verb stem. Can I apply this to other verbs in the lesson (μένω, πίπτω, προσχωρέω)?
I'll give you the first one: μένουσι(ν). You should do the same with imperative forms. On the infinitive, you can refer back to my earlier post:
Aetos wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:13 pm
It appears we need to clarify a couple of concepts. To be fair, I think the book could do a little better at explaining what an infinitive is. We use infinitives in English frequently but we don't think about how they differ from other forms of a verb. We just know we can use them to express purpose or to label an action or by adding a helping verb, express necessity (e.g. I have to go). We know that to form one in English, we usually have to add the preposition to. But why do we call it an infinitive? Before we answer that, let's go back to other forms you've learnt, namely the indicative and the imperative. These moods fall into the category of finite verbs. Two other moods that you'll be learning about later, the subjunctive and the optative, also fall into this category. Why are they finite? Well, the word "finite" implies these verbs have some kind of limit. Can you think of what kind of limits a verb might have? How about person(1st,2nd,3rd)? Now let's go back to the infinitive-is it limited in person? Is there such a thing as a 1st person singular or plural infinitive? No. The word "infinitive" basically means something that has no limits and in that way it is different from finite verbs, which are limited in some way. OK, so that's how we come up with the name "infinitive", but what purpose does it serve in Greek? It is used as a verbal noun. (It's really used for the that purpose in English as well.) When you want to use a word that represents some kind of action, you can take that action and by changing the form of the verb, turn it into a noun(This type of noun is called a substantive). So let's take the verb "lift". In English, we add "to" and we get "to lift". In Greek, this is done by changing the verb ending only. We don't add any other words. Let's create the present infinitive of the greek verb for "lift". What's the 1st person indicative? αἴρω. What's the stem? αἴρ-. What ending do we add for the infinitive? -ειν. (Strictly speaking, it's -εν, but that's a topic for another time). So, what's the present infinitive of αἴρω? αἴρειν. The infinitive is a very important form to master in Greek. Fortunately, there is only one form for each tense and voice (due to its "infinite" nature), but it is used in a number of "grammatical constructions" (more on this as they come up) which are employed extensively in literature and especially in Attic prose. Get used to it, you'll be seeing it a lot.
You'll notice that the heading "verb forms:..." is numbered. When you get to the grammar section in 3B, you'll see that this section starts with the number 2. I mention this because I think it would be a good idea to add your checklist for the second grammar section to the one you've created for the first grammar section in Chapter 3. That way you'll have a good review tool for the entire chapter (3A&3B). It's just a suggestion, though.
Once you've quizzed yourself using the checklists and have mastered the new forms, try the exercises again. Hopefully, they should be a little easier.
ἐν δὲ τούτῳ προσχωρεῖ ὁ Φίλιππος· ὁ Φίλιππός ἐστιν ὁ τοῦ Δικαιοπόλιδος υἱός, παῖς μέγας τε καὶ ἀνδρεῖος· φέρει δὲ τὸ δεῖπνον πρὸς τὸν πατέρα.
Rough Translation: Meanwhile he/she go towards/approach Philippos; Philippos is the Dikaiopolis' son, boy/girl/son/daughter/child big/great/large both and brave; he carries and/but the dinner towards the father.
Final Translation: Meanwhile he approaches Philippos Philippos is Dikaiopolis' son, both big and brave; and he carries the dinner towards his father.
ἐπεὶ δὲ εἰς τὸν ἀγρὸν εἰσβαινει, τὸν πατέρα καλεῖ καὶ λέγει "ἐλθὲ δεῦρο, ὦ πάτερ· ἰδού, τὸ δεῖπνον φέρω. μηκέτι οὖν πόνει ἀλλὰ κάθιζε καὶ δείπνει."
Rough Translation: When and/but into the field into steps/comes to/toward the father calls and says "Come here, o father; look, the dinner I carry; don't any longer so/then work, but sit and eat."
Final translation: And when he steps into the field towards his father he calls and says "Come here, o father; look, I'm carrying the dinner so don't work any longer but sit and eat."
ὁ οὖν πατὴρ λείπει τὸ ἄροτρον καὶ καλεῖ τὸν δοῦλον.
Rough Translation: so/then the father he leaves the plow and he calls the slave.
Final Translation: So the father leaves the plow and calls the slave.
καθίζουσιν οὖν ἅμα και δειπνοῦσιν.
Rough Translation: They sit so/then together and they eat.
Final Translation: Then they sit together and they eat.
μετὰ δὲ τὸ δεῖπνον ὁ Δικαιόπολις, "μένε, ὦ παῖ," φησίν, "καὶ συλλάμβανε. φέρε τὸ σπέρμα καὶ σπεῖρε. σὺ δέ, ὦ Ξανθία, σκάπτε τοὺς λίθους καὶ ἔκφερε ἐκ τοῦ ἀγροῦ. πολλοὶ γάρ εἰσιν οἱ λίθοι καὶ μόλις δυνατόν ἐστιν αροῦν."
Rough Translation: After and/but the dinner Dikaiopolis, "Stay/wait, o boy/girl/son/daughter/child," he says, "and help. Carry the seed and sow. You and/but, o Xanthia, dig the stones and carry out of the field. Many for they are the stones and with difficulty/scarce;y possible is to plow.
Final Translation: And after the dinner Dikaiopolis said "Wait son, and help. Carry the seed and sow. And you, Xanthias, dig the stones and carry them out of the field. For many are the stones and it is scarcely possible to plow.
ὁ δὲ Ξανθίας, "ἀλλ' οὐ δυνατόν ἐστι τοσούτους λίθους ἐκφέρειν."
Rough Translation: And/but Xanthias "But not possible is so great/many the stones carry out."
Final Translation: But Canthias "But it is not possible to carry out so many stones."
ὁ δὲ Δικαιόπολις, "μὴ φλυάρει, ὦ Ξανθία, ἀλλὰ πόνει."
Rough Translation: And/but Dikaiopolis, "Don't talk nonsense, o Xanthia, but work."
Final Translation: And Dikaiopolis, "Don't talk nonsense, Xanthias, but work."
πονοῦσιν οὖν ὅ τε πατὴρ καὶ ὁ οαῖς καὶ ὁ δοῦλος.
Rough Translation: The worked so/then both the father and the son and the slave.
Final Translation: So they worked, the father and the son and the slave.
τέλος δὲ καταδύνει μὲν ὁ ἥλιος, οἱ δὲ ανθρωπο οὐκέτι πονοῦσιν ἀλλὰ λύουσι μὲν τοὺς βοῦς, τὸ δὲ ἄροτρον λαίπουσιν ἐν τῷ αγρῷ καὶ πρὸς τὸν οἶκον βραδέως βαδίζουσιν.
Rough Translation: Finally the sets on the one hand the sun, on the other hand the men no longer they work but they loose on the one hand the oxen, on the other hand the plow they leave in the field and towards the house they slowly walk.
Final Translation: Finally the sun sets, the men work no longer but they loose the oxen, the plow they leave in the feld and they slowly walk towards the house.
Your final translation is fine. There are a couple of typos here: can you spot them? There are a number of typos scattered throughout the sentences. I would suggest correcting them for the benefit of other folks who do not have the book.
Checklist: Looks good. A good way to memorise these forms is to write them out (as many times as you can stand!) with the proper breathing and accent marks. You can also recite them to yourself. Basically, you're reproducing the paradigms you see in the Grammar section. The notes on accenting are basically rules to help you remember what accents are used for each case of the noun. This would be a good time to revise or review Section 1 (Syllables and Accents) in your Reference Grammar, especially the section on Placement of accents.
Your final translation is fine. There are a couple of typos here: can you spot them? There are a number of typos scattered throughout the sentences. I would suggest correcting them for the benefit of other folks who do not have the book.
Uhm...is it the circumflexes again? I already refrained from putting a circumflex on the top of long a, u and just typed them with typegreek as if there is no line above those letters.
malolosgreencat wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:14 pm
τὸν πατέρα...accusative, because of the ton? As for why accusative...it's the direct object of Philippos' dialogue?
Phillippos' dialogue is what Phillipos says, i.e. λέγει " ἐλθέ δεῦρο…". Can καλεῖ take an object? If so, what or who would that object be?
malolosgreencat wrote: ↑Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:14 pm
Uhm...is it the circumflexes again?
No, not really. These are just ordinary typos. These days the joints in my fingers are slightly arthritic, so they don't obey like they used to; consequently, I make a fair share of typos myself. That means I have to closely look over what I've typed and fix the mistakes. As an example, I'll give the first one in the sentence I posted above:
Correct "οἱ δὲ ανθρωπο".
Finding the typos and correcting them might actually help reinforce your learning of the different forms you've learnt up to this point.
ἐν δὲ τούτῳ προσχωρεῖ ὁ φίλιππος· ὁ φίλιππός ἐστιν ὁ τοῦ Δικαιοπόλιδος υἱός, παῖς μέγας τε καὶ ἀνδρεῖος· φέρει δὲ τὸ δεῖπνον πρὸς τὸν πατέρα.
Rough Translation: Meanwhile he/she go towards/approach Philippos; Philippos is the Dikaiopolis' son, boy/girl/son/daughter/child big/great/large both and brave; he carries and/but the dinner towards the father.
Final Translation: Meanwhile he approaches Philippos Philippos is Dikaiopolis' son, both big and brave; and he carries the dinner towards his father.
ἐπεὶ δὲ εἰς τὸν ἀγρὸν εἰσβαίνει, τὸν πατέρα καλεῖ καὶ λέγει "ἐλθὲ δεῦρο, ὦ πάτερ· ἰδού, τὸ δεῖπνον φέρ. μηκέτι οὖν πόνει ἀλλὰ κάθιζε καὶ δείπνει."
Rough Translation: When and/but into the field into steps/comes to/toward the father calls and says "Come here, o father; look, the dinner I carry; don't any longer so/then work, but sit and eat."
Final translation: And when he steps into the field towards his father he calls and says "Come here, o father; look, I'm carrying the dinner so don't work any longer but sit and eat."
ὁ οὖν πατὴρ λείπει ὸ ἄροτρον καὶ καλεῖ τὸν δοῦλον.
Rough Translation: so/then the father he leaves the plow and he calls the slave.
Final Translation: So the father leaves the plow and calls the slave.
καθίζουσιν οὖν ἅμα καὶ δειπνοῦσιν.
Rough Translation: They sit so/then together and they eat.
Final Translation: Then they sit together and they eat.
μετὰ δὲ τὸ δεῖπνον ὁ Δικαιόπολις, "μένε, ὦ παῖ," φησίν, "καὶ συλλάμβανε. φέρε τὸ σπέρμα καὶ σπει-ρε. σὺ δέ, ὦ Ξανθία, σκάπτε τοὺς λίθους καὶ ἔκφερε ἐκ τοῦ ἀγροῦ. πολλοὶ γάρ εἰσιν οἱ λίθοι καὶ μόλις δυνατόν ἐστιν ἀροῦν.
Rough Translation: After and/but the dinner Dikaiopolis, "Stay/wait, o boy/girl/son/daughter/child," he says, "and help. Carry the seed and sow. You and/but, o Xanthia, dig the stones and carry out of the field. Many for they are the stones and with difficulty/scarce;y possible is to plow.
Final Translation: And after the dinner Dikaiopolis said "Wait son, and help. Carry the seed and sow. And you, Xanthias, dig the stones and carry them out of the field. For many are the stones and it is scarcely possible to plow.
ὁ δὲ Ξανθίας, "ἀλλ᾿ οὐ δυνατόν ἐστι τοσούτους λίθους ἐκφέρειν."
Rough Translation: And/but Xanthias "But not possible is so great/many the stones carry out."
Final Translation: But Canthias "But it is not possible to carry out so many stones."
ὁ δὲ Δικαιόπολις, "μὴ φλυάρει, ὦ Ξανθία, ἀλλὰ πόνει."
Rough Translation: And/but Dikaiopolis, "Don't talk nonsense, o Xanthia, but work."
Final Translation: And Dikaiopolis, "Don't talk nonsense, Xanthias, but work."
πονοῦσιν οὖν ὅ τε πατὴρ καὶ ὁ παῖς καὶ ὁ δοῦλος.
Rough Translation: The worked so/then both the father and the son and the slave.
Final Translation: So they worked, the father and the son and the slave.
τέλος δὲ καταδύνει μὲν ὁ ἥλιος, οἱ δὲ ἄνθρωποι οὐκέτι πονοῦσιν ἀλλὰ λύουσι μὲν τοὺς βοῦς, τὸ δὲ ἄροτρον λαίπουσιν ἐν τῷ αγρῷ καὶ πρὸς τὸν οἶκον βραδέως βαδίζουσιν.
Rough Translation: Finally the sets on the one hand the sun, on the other hand the men no longer they work but they loose on the one hand the oxen, on the other hand the plow they leave in the field and towards the house they slowly walk.
Final Translation: Finally the sun sets, the men work no longer but they loose the oxen, the plow they leave in the feld and they slowly walk towards the house.
Well, here I finished correcting the typos. I wonder why the edit button for my previous post disappeared, forcing me to make a new post.
, or if you don't have a ruler, you can go to the Amazon site and see the dimensions of the book by scrolling down the product information page. Here it is for the Second Edition:
