My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

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jeidsath
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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by jeidsath »

οὐ usually precedes the thing it is negating.

"I am carrying" would be φέρω, not "εἰμί φέρει", which would mean "I am. He carries."

You have the same problem in 1.

Accent on σπεύδεις is wrong in 4.

ἀργός does not have a circumflex.

ἰσχυρός does not have a circumflex.

δοῦλος doesn't have two accents (normally). The only time that a word will ever have a second accent is when it is followed by a enclitic word that sticks to the back of it, like ἐστι or τε. There is probably discussion of this in your book.

οὐ doesn't need the final κ before consonant (8).
"Here stuck the great stupid boys, who for the life of them could never master the accidence..."

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

malolosgreencat wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:25 pm ἆγρός? I thought you are referring to οὐκ? And uh...because ἆγρός is at the end of the sentence, and οὐκ and ἐστίν are before it thus affecting only each other because estin should only mess with the word before it and ouk should only mess with the word after, ἆγρός should stay unchanged...I think?
What I'm getting at is there should be no circumflex over the α in αργος (not ἀγρός=field) All you should place there is a breathing mark. There are occasions when you can have two accents in a word, but this is not one of them, so you should write ἀργός, not ἆργός. The same goes for αγρος; it should be written ὁ ἀγρός. You are quite right about placing an acute (instead of a grave accent) on the last syllable of a word when it's followed by a mark of punctuation, such as when it comes at the end of a sentence, but only if that's where the word is normally accented.

Sentences:
1. Unlike English, the continuous aspect of a verb can be supplied in one form of the verb (the present). If you look in the Grammar section, you'll see there's more than one way of translating the verb λύω -I loosen, do loosen, am loosening
So, remembering this, how would you rewrite this sentence?
3. See sentence 1.
4. Remember there is normally only one accented syllable in a word, so if the 1st per. singular is σπεύδω, how do you write the 2nd. person singular? If you placed the circumflex on the last syllable because the word came at the end of the sentence, see above. If you placed it there to indicate a long syllable, there is no need: diphthongs are long, with just 2 exceptions, which you'll see later. I would suggest not trying to mark the long syllables with a circumflex, it's confusing me!
5. See my remarks above about the circumflex. How should you accent αργος ?
6. Normally οὐ precedes the word it negates, so how would you rewrite this sentence?
7. Generally, to express an English indefinite article(in this case "a") in Greek, you simply omit the definite article (ὁ, ἡ, το )
For placement of οὐ, see sentence 6.
8. There is no need for the grave accent before the enclitic. In fact, when there is a need for an accent, it's the acute. This occurs when the antepenult has an acute or the penult has a circumflex and then word is followed by an enclitic. What form of οὐ do you use before a word beginning with a consonant?
9. There are several errors here which we have already talked about. What gender is ἄροτρον ? (ὁ, ἡ, or τό ? )
10. See above.
EDIT: Cross posted with Joel.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by malolosgreencat »

Ok. So argos doesn't have a circumflex, so why did this copy of Athenaze 2nd Edition give argos a circumflex above the 'a' in Vocabulary2A? I copied from there in good faith thus all the argos I wrote has a circumflex.

Wait, is this because of a special circumstance with regards to this particular word? Or just an error by the publisher?

Also, ugh. The medicine has a kick. Headaches and sleepiness the whole day, and its supposed to be normal side effects. Trying to think of Attic is harder than usual.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by jeidsath »

Take a picture of the vocabulary and post it, but it does sound like a typo.
"Here stuck the great stupid boys, who for the life of them could never master the accidence..."

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

malolosgreencat wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 12:54 pm Ok. So argos doesn't have a circumflex, so why did this copy of Athenaze 2nd Edition give argos a circumflex above the 'a' in Vocabulary2A? I copied from there in good faith thus all the argos I wrote has a circumflex.

Wait, is this because of a special circumstance with regards to this particular word? Or just an error by the publisher?
I wish I could see the page. In my edition, ἀργός-ἀργή-ἀργόν does not appear in 2A. It is however listed in the vocabulary at the back of the book. The adjective ῥᾴθῡμος is used instead for lazy. AFAIK, there is no special circumstance that would have one place a circumflex over the α in ἀργός. Here's the entry for ἀργός in the Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek Lexicon:
https://logeion.uchicago.edu/%E1%BC%80% ... F%8C%CF%82

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by jeidsath »

The accent will go back during elision, but won't ever become circumflex. (Schol. Ven. Λ 160 says that Didymus contradicts this, but nobody accents like that.)
"Here stuck the great stupid boys, who for the life of them could never master the accidence..."

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by malolosgreencat »

Ok. I'm trying again, with rewritten answers.

Exercise 2B.

1. He/she is not hurrying.
οὐκ σπεύδει.

2. Why are you not working?
τί οὐ πονεῖς;

3. I am carrying the plow.
φερω τὸ ἄροτρον.

4. You are hurrying to the field.
πρὸς τὸν ἀγρὸν σπεύδεις.

5. He is lazy.
ἀγρός ἐστιν

6. I am not strong.
οὐκ εἰμὶ ισχῦρός.

7. You are not a slave.
οὐ δοῦλος ἐ῀ι.

8. The slave is not working.
δοῦλος οὐ πονεῖ.

9. The slave is carrying the plow to the field.
δοῦλος φέρει τὸ ἄροτρον πρὸς τὸν ἀγρόν.

10. He is not lazy.
οὐκ ἀργός ἐστιν.

Damnit. Why won't imgur accept signing in from Yahoo?

Edit:

Here it is.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

Ah! That explains it-the mark above the α is a macron (used to designate a long vowel), not a circumflex. As I've suggested, it's probably best not to mark the long vowels when typing your posts.
P.S. Thanks for providing the picture, it truly had me perplexed!

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

Much better on the exercise! There are a just a few errors. I'll leave it to Joel to point them out. It takes me a lot longer to type out replies when I'm frequently shifting between Greek and English and I'm afraid my answers are seldom very concise.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

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Aetos wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 2:32 pm It takes me a lot longer to type out replies when I'm frequently shifting between Greek and English
Oh, better with both of us. I'm not careful, and I missed τὸ ἄροτρον last time. For switching quickly between Greek/English, a hotkey is useful. I use ctrl-space.

1. οὐ only needs -κ before the consonant. [EDIT: "only needs -κ before a vowel"]

3. φέρω

5. You wrote that he is a field.

6. ἰσχυρός needs a breathing and your text has ῡ macron to indicate the long vowel, not ῦ circumflex.

8. Article
"Here stuck the great stupid boys, who for the life of them could never master the accidence..."

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

Thank you, Joel. I should set up a special hot-key specifically for GR-EN. Right now, I have 6 different keyboards installed, so everytime I want to switch between EN and GR, I have to either use the mouse ( 2 clicks) or press alt+shift 6 times!

Malo,
Joel has covered just about everything. The only other thing I want to mention is that Greek is a language that demands attention to detail, which is why it's easy to confuse a word meaning "lazy" with one meaning "field" (ἀργός - ἀγρός). There's more to it (like ἀργός is an adjective, and ἀγρός is a noun), but I think you get the idea. Aside from the letter, the other markings can make a big difference. Here's an example:
ἡ - nominative feminine article singular (the)
ἥ - relative pronoun, feminine nominative singular (who)
ἥ - article, feminine nominative singular before an enclitic (the)
ἤ - or, than, either
ἦ - imperfect 1st person singular of εἰμί (I was)
ᾗ - relative pronoun, feminine dative singular (whom
)

and believe it or not, there are actually a few more!

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

jeidsath wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 3:41 pm For switching quickly between Greek/English, a hotkey is useful. I use ctrl-space.
Thanks for the tip, Joel! I already use ctrl-space for toggling Chinese IME/nonIME, but I set up Ctrl 1 for Greek and Ctrl 2 for English. That still saves me a lot of keystrokes.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by malolosgreencat »

Ok. I see. Thanks. Regarding the He is a field mistake, what is the answer to it? I had a brain fart that I should cut down on as much words as I should if the verb forms will do away with having to use estin or eimi or ei most of the time.

Ugh, funzela is really making it hard to think. Normal side effects include dizziness.

Damned fungal infections, and more damn to bacterial infections, and damn my teeth they are too sharp.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

In sentence 5, you wrote ἀγρός ἐστιν. This translates as "he(or she or it) is a field". You know the words for 'lazy' and 'is'. How do you write "he is lazy"?

Let's talk about making translations. As you progress along in Greek, you'll see that you cannot translate English sentences word for word. Greek is structured differently from English and uses different constructions to convey meaning. What this means is when you translate, you have to take a thought, statement or an idea and try to express it the way an ancient Greek person would. I think you see this, because your Greek to English translations are very good. Let's have a look at this business of 'he carries, he is carrying, he does carry'. In English, these three forms of the verb in the present tense represent 3 different aspects: he carries (indefinite, we just know he carries), he is carrying (continuous action), he does carry (emphatic- he does carry it, he doesn't drop it). In Greek, in the present indicative, the verb (φέρει) can have any one of these 3 meanings. In English, for momentary action in the present, you leave the verb as it is or you add an 's' for the 3rd person sing; for continuous action, you use a helping verb (is) plus the present participle, a verbal adjective (carrying). In Greek, you don't use a helping verb for this and participles are not used this way. They're used in many ways (and it's amazing just how many ways), but they cannot be used to solely denote continuous action the way they do in English.

So when you translate, think about expressing an idea in Greek, rather than converting a string of words from English to Greek. This may seem somewhat abstract right now, but it's going to become more and more important as you progress.

P.S. Hopefully, your medicine will start alleviating some of your discomfort.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by malolosgreencat »

Aetos wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 11:38 am In sentence 5, you wrote ἀγρός ἐστιν. This translates as "he(or she or it) is a field". You know the words for 'lazy' and 'is'. How do you write "he is lazy"?
Ah. Now I see...after an hour of looking. Damn. Funzela's side effects make thinking hard. And I have to take this until...next week.

I so don't enjoy the dizziness and want to have a second referral now.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

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Hi Malo,
For this exercise, it was probably better to write it out by hand, so that you could show the labelling, but don't give up on typing! Translations look good, but we need to work on the labelling. The good news-you identified almost all the imperatives (missed 3) correctly! Now, areas for improvement-basic grammar. You need to be able to recognise these basic elements of the sentence. I suggested a little while back that you review basic English grammar-I'm going to suggest it again. For now, I'll list the elements of the sentences you need to relabel:
1. ἐκ τοῦ οἴκου
2. ὦ δοῦλε (what case?), πόνει
3. μή does go with ἴσθι, but the word itself is a negative particle. ὦ δέσποτα (what is case is this?)
4. αἶρε-τὸ ἄροτρον-πρὸς τὸν ἀγρόν.
5. κάλει

Review the vocative case, prepositional phrases (what are they and how they used?), transitive and intransitive verbs, direct and indirect objects, and complements.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by malolosgreencat »

So, how is this revision? Did I get everything right now?

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

Hi Malo,
Sentence 1: Correct.
Sentence 2: Although δοῦλε ends in ε, that does not make it an imperative! Also, μή is used with other forms of the verb, not just with the imperative. As I pointed out in the previous post, μή is called a negative particle, so we can't really label it as an imperative. The imperative (which you've been correctly translating) is a "mood" of the verb. You know two so far: the indicative and imperative. The indicative, as the name shows, indicates that someone is performing an action on something or an action to or for someone or simply exists (there is more to this, but so far this is what you've seen in your book). The verb forms associated with the imperative mood are used to issue a command . There are two other moods which you'll learn about much later.
Sentence 3: ὦ δέσποτα - What case do you think this noun may be? When do we use that case? Is there a transitive verb in this sentence requiring a direct object? If you don't know or can't figure it out, google these terms: transitive verbs, intransitive verbs, direct objects, indirect objects
Sentence 4: Perfect!!
Sentence 5: Also Perfect!
Getting closer!
P.S. I think you're equating μή with "don't" which in English is the contraction for "do not". μή is like the "not", not the "do". I hope that's not too many nots!!

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by malolosgreencat »

Aetos wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 6:10 pm
Sentence 3: ὦ δέσποτα - What case do you think this noun may be? When do we use that case? Is there a transitive verb in this sentence requiring a direct object? If you don't know or can't figure it out, google these terms: transitive verbs, intransitive verbs, direct objects, indirect objects
It ends in a, so that means it is a noun in the accusative case, which happens when a noun is the direct object...right?

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

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malolosgreencat wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 6:25 pm
Aetos wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 6:10 pm
Sentence 3: ὦ δέσποτα - What case do you think this noun may be? When do we use that case? Is there a transitive verb in this sentence requiring a direct object? If you don't know or can't figure it out, google these terms: transitive verbs, intransitive verbs, direct objects, indirect objects
It ends in a, so that means it is a noun in the accusative case, which happens when a noun is the direct object...right?
This is a first declension masculine noun: ὁ δεσπότης, τοῦ δεσπότου, τῷ δεσπότῃ, τὸν δεσπότη-ν, ὦ δέσποτα. I know they haven't given you all the forms of first declension nouns yet, but another clue is the ὦ before δέσποτα. What kind of verb is ἴσθι (transitive, intransitive, or linking)? Which one of these types could have a direct object?

P.S. Malo, don't worry about 'getting them all right' . Mistakes are how we learn - the more we make, the more we learn! The most important bit is the process of identifying the mistakes, figuring out why we made them, and how to avoid making them in the future.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by seanjonesbw »

Aetos is giving you fantastic advice and feedback here and I am absolutely not going to tread on his toes. A bit of light relief instead: I saw this image today about Canadian social distancing and it reminded me of the picture of Δικαιόπολις and the δοῦλος above - remember to stay one βοῦς apart at all times, people! 🙂

Image

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

Thank you, Sean for reminding us that we do this for fun! Believe it or not, I took my first aeroplane ride in a town called Caribou, just a little ways south of the Canadian border in the state of Maine. Many years later, I had a friend that landed there by mistake, albeit an honest one. He learned a lot.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

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Chapter 2B

Vocabulary

ὁ μὲν οὖν Δικαιόπολις ἐλαύνει τοὺς βοῦς, ὁ δὲ Ξανθίας ὄπισθεν βαδίζει καὶ φέρει τὸ ἄροτρον.

Rough translation: on the one hand so/then Dikaiopolis he drives the oxen, on the other hand Xanthias behind he walks/goes and he carries the plow.

Final translation: So Dikaiopolis drives the oxen on the one hand, on the other hand Xanthias walks behind and carries the plow.

δι ᾿ ὀλιγου δὲ ὁ Δικαιόπολις εἰσάγει τοὺς βοῦς εἰς τὸν ἀγρὸν καὶ βλέπει πρὸς τὸν δοῦλον· ὁ δὲ Ξανθίας οὐ παρεστιν· βραδέως γὰρ βαίνει.

Rough translation: soon and/but Dikaiopolis he leads in/takes in the oxen to/into the field and he looks/sees towards the slave; and/but Xanthias not present/here/there; slowly he walks/steps/goes.

Final translation: And soon Dikaiopolis leads in the oxen into the field and looks towards the slave; but Xanthias is not present; for he walks slowly.

ὁ οὖν Δικαιόπολις καλεῖ αὐτὸν καὶ λέγει· "σπεῦδε, ὦ Χανθια, καὶ φέρε μοι τὸ ἄροτρον."

Rough translation: so/then Dikaiopolis he calls him and he says; "Hurry, Xanthias, and carry me the plow."

Final translation: So Dikaiopolis calls him and says; "Hurry, Xanthias, and carry the plow to me."

ὁ δὲ Ξανθίας λέγει· "ἀλλ᾿ ἤδη σπεύδω, ὦ δέσποτα· τί οὕτω χαλεπὸς εἶ;" βραδέως δὲ φέρει τὸ ἄροτρον πρὸς αὐτόν.

Rough translation: and/but Xanthias says; "But already/now hurry, o master; why so/be hard you are?" slowly and/but carry the plow towards him.

Final translation: And Xanthias says "But I am already hurrying, o master; why are you so harsh?" and slowly carries the plow towards him.

ὁ οὖν Δικαιὀπολις ἄγει τοὺς βοῦς ὑπὸ τὸ ζυγὸν καὶ προσάπτει τὸ ἄροτρον.

Rough translation: so/then Dikaiopolis he leads the oxen under the yoke and attaches the plow.

Final translation: Then Dikaiopolis leads the oxen under the yoke and attaches the plow.

ἔπειτα δὲ πρὸς τὸν δοϋλον βλέπει· ὁδὲ Ξανθίας οὐ πάρεστιν· κατθεύδει γὰρ ὑπὸ τῷ δένδρῳ.

Rough translation: then/thereafter and/but towards the slave he looks/sees; and/but Xanthias not present/here/there; he sleeps for under the tree.

Final translation: Then he looks towards the slave; but Xanthias is not there; for he sleeps under the tree.

ὁ οὖν Δικαιόπολις καλεῖ αὐτὸν καὶ λέγει·"ἐλθὲ δεῦρο, ὦ κατάρατε. μὴ κάθευδε ἀλλὰ συλλάμβανε. φέρε γὰρ τὸ σπέρμα καὶ ὄπισθεν βαδιζε."

Rough translation: so/then Dikaiopolis he calls him and says; "Come here, you cursed creature. Don't sleep but help. Carry for the seen and behind/at the back walks/goes."

Final translation: So Dikaiopolis calls him and says "Come here, you cursed creature. Don't sleep but help. Carry the seend and walk behind."

ὁ νὲν οὖν δοῦλος τὸ σπέρμα λαμβάνει καὶ ακολουθεῖ, ὁ δὲ δεσπότης καλεῖ τὴν Δήμητρα καὶ λεγει· "ἵλεως ἴθι, ὦ Δήμητερ, καὶ πλήθυνε τὸ σπέρμα."

Rough translation: on the one hand so/then the slave the seed he takes and follows, on the other hand the master he calls Demeter and he says; "gracious be, o Demeter, and multiply the seed."

Final translation: Then on the one hand the slave takes the seed and follows, on the other hand the master calls Demeter and says; "Be gracious, o Demeter, and multiply the seed."

ἔπειτα δὲ τὸ κέντρον λαμβάνει καὶ κεντεῖ τοὺς βοῦς καὶ λέγει "σπεύδετε, ὦ βόες· ἕλκετε τὸ ἄροτρον καὶ ἀροῦτε τὸν ἀγρόν."

Rough translation: then/thereafter and/but the goad he takes and goads the oxen and says "Hurry, oxes; drag the plow and plow the field."

Final translation: And then he takes the goad and he goads the oxen and says "Hurry, oxes; drag the plow and plow the field."

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

All in all, good job! You've understood the reading selection 100%! In terms of translation, you could polish the English a little bit more and to do that, remember that just as you don't have to necessarily translate every English word into Greek (remember how we write "he is carrying" in Greek?), there may be words in a Greek sentence that don't need to be translated into English. A good example of this is the μεν...δε construction. While there are times when you do translate it as "on the one hand...on the other hand", there are other times when you don't have to. For example, the sentence I just wrote "While there are times...……….…..,there are other times" would use the μἐν ……...δέ construction in Greek. If we take that first sentence, "ὁ μὲν οὖν Δικαιόπολις ἐλαύνει τοὺς βοῦς, ὁ δὲ Ξανθίας ὄπισθεν βαδίζει καὶ φέρει τὸ ἄροτρον.", you could just as easily leave the OTOH expression out altogether and the sentence would still get across all of the meaning. "So Dikaiopolis drives the oxen, Xanthias walks behind and carries the plow." The key concept is that these are two different languages, different not only in vocabulary, but in grammar and syntax as well. If there happens to be a 1 to 1 correspondence between English and Greek words in a sentence, it's probably just as much by accident as anything else.

How much should you be concerned with coming up with a finely polished translation? Well, there's considerable debate about that aspect of learning other languages. My own view is that so long as your translation shows that you understand how the words fit together in the sentence and that it clearly shows the full sense, then that should suffice. Does it have to be worthy of publication in the next classics journal? No.

You're going to hear the expression "idiomatic English" quite a lot, which does bring up a important point. Your final translation should at least be grammatically correct in English and sound natural. For me anyway, that's enough polish!

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by malolosgreencat »

Word Building

Deduce the meaning of the following compound verbs:

1. προσφέρει = he carries toward/to
2. ἐκφέρει = he carries out
3. προσελαύνει = he drives toward/to
4. προσβαίνει = he step/comes to/toward
5. ἐκκαλεῖ = he calls out
6. εἰσελαύνει = he drives into

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

Looks good. Note in the instructions that it says when a compound has a special meaning, it will be given in the vocabulary list. The first word, προσφέρει, which can be deduced as meaning "carries to", can also mean "offer", "add to", "bring to", "address", "contribute", "pay" and has a few other meanings. The point is that you may find that the meaning you deduce from the compound may not quite fit the context of what you're reading, but there may be a word which is a logical extension of the original meaning that does. Although right now you're being supplied with the possible meanings you need for a word, bear In mind that there may be other, more specific meanings for those words later on. A good habit to develop will be to check the words whose meanings you are "deducing" in your vocabulary or later on in a dictionary or lexicon. Being able to deduce meaning is worthwhile, because it'll help you remember. It's also important to confirm your deduction!
Hope you're feeling better!

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by malolosgreencat »

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Aetos
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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

Exercise 2d looks good.
Exercise 2e:
1. σπεύδει , ἀγρόν (not σπεύδεις and remember breathing mark and accent for ἀγρόν)
2. ἀργόν (remember accent mark)
4. ἐλαύνω (remember your breathing marks!)
5. δοῦλε (vocative ending)

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by malolosgreencat »

Aetos wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 6:09 pm Exercise 2d looks good.
Exercise 2e:
1. σπεύδει , ἀγρόν (not σπεύδεις and remember breathing mark and accent for ἀγρόν)
2. ἀργόν (remember accent mark)
4. ἐλαύνω (remember your breathing marks!)
5. δοῦλε (vocative ending)
Well. That's what I get for trying to rush answers and thinking I already memorized the endings right.

Exercise 2z
Translate the following pairs of sentences:

1. ὁ δοῦλος οὐκ ἔστιν ᾿Αθηναῖος. = The slave is not Athenian.
Xanthias is not strong. = ὁ Ξανθιας οὐκ ισχυρός.

2. ὁ Δικαιόπολις εκβαίνει ἐκ τοῦ οἴκου καὶ καλεῖ τὸν δοῦλον. = Dikaipolis walks out of the house and calls the slave.
The slave hurries to the field and carries the plow. = ὁ δοῦλός σπεῦδει πρὸς τὸν ἀγρὸν καὶ φέρεο τπ` ἄροτρον.

3. ὁ δοῦλος οὐ συλλαμβάνει ἀλλὰ καθεύδει ὑπὸ τῷ δένδρῳ. = The slave doesn't help but sleeps under the tree.
The man is not working but walking to the house. = ὀ ἄνθρωπος οὐ πόνεῖ ἀλλὰ βαίνει πρὸς τὸν οἶκον.

4. εἴσελθε εἰς τὸν οἶκον, ὦ Ξανθία, καὶ φέρε τὸν σῖτον. = Come into the house, Xanthias, and carry the food.
Come, slave, and lead in the oxen. = ἐλθὲ, ὁ δοῦλε, εἰσάγε τοὺς βοῦς.

5. μὴ πόνει, ὦ Ξανθία, ἀλλὰ ἐλθὲ δεῦρο. = Don't work, Xanthias, but come here.
Don't sleep, man, but work in the field. = μὴ καθεύδει, ὁ ἄνθρωπος, ἀλλὰ πόνει ἐν τὸν ἀγρὸν.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

Hi Malo,
There are a number of accent and breathing marks that need to be corrected. Before we look at the translations, see if you can find and correct these items. While you're composing your answers, it's easy to miss these, so it's important to go back over your work and check. Back when I was at college, we still used the 3 accent and 2 breathing marks even in modern Greek, so one had to be careful (especially writing with a pen!). I had an acquaintance who used to wait until she had finished writing whatever she was going to write (sometimes it would be a letter to a friend several pages long) and then go back and add the marks!

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by malolosgreencat »

1. ὁ δοῦλος οὐκ ἔστιν ᾿Αθηναῖος. = The slave is not Athenian.
Xanthias is not strong. = ὁ Ξανθίας οὐκ ἔστιν ἰσχυρός.

2. ὁ Δικαιόπολις ἐκβαίνει ἐκ τοῦ οἴκου καὶ καλεῖ τὸν δοῦλον. = Dikaipolis walks out of the house and calls the slave.
The slave hurries to the field and carries the plow. = ὁ δοῦλός σπεύδει πρὸς τὸν ἀγρὸν καὶ φέρει τὸ ἄροτρον.

3. ὁ δοῦλος οὐ συλλαμβάνει ἀλλὰ καθεύδει ὑπὸ τῷ δένδρῳ. = The slave doesn't help but sleeps under the tree.
The man is not working but walking to the house. = ὀ ἄνθρωπος οὐ πόνει ἀλλὰ βαίνει πρὸς τὸν οἶκον.

4. εἴσελθε εἰς τὸν οἶκον, ὦ Ξανθία, καὶ φέρε τὸν σῖτον. = Come into the house, Xanthias, and carry the food.
Come, slave, and lead in the oxen. = ἐλθὲ, ὁ δουλε, εἰσάγε τοὺς βοῦς.

5. μὴ πόνει, ὦ Ξανθία, ἀλλὰ ἐλθὲ δεῦρο. = Don't work, Xanthias, but come here.
Don't sleep, man, but work in the field. = μὴ καθεύδει, ὁ ἄνθρωπος, ἀλλὰ πόνει ἐν τὸν ἀγρὸν.

I...I can't see what's wrong with ὁ ἄνθρωπος. I checked and I'm already using the same breathing and accent as the book. What did I get wrong here?
Last edited by malolosgreencat on Mon May 11, 2020 3:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

Better! Now correct these:
1.Ξανθιας
2. εκβαίνει
τπ` ἄροτρον.
3. πόνεῖ
4. ὁ δοῦλε, εἰσάγε
5. ὁ ἄνθρωπος, ἐν τὸν ἀγρὸν

You may not see the problem with εἰσάγε and ἐν τὸν ἀγρὸν, but we'll talk about that later. See if you can fix the rest.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by malolosgreencat »

Aetos wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 10:39 am Better! Now correct these:
1.Ξανθιας
2. εκβαίνει
τπ` ἄροτρον.
3. πόνεῖ
4. ὁ δοῦλε, εἰσάγε
5. ὁ ἄνθρωπος, ἐν τὸν ἀγρὸν

You may not see the problem with εἰσάγε and ἐν τὸν ἀγρὸν, but we'll talk about that later. See if you can fix the rest.
...correct the accent and breathing or correct because I should use another word, or both?

And the ekbainei in #2 belongs to the sentence I should translate into English. So...huh? Did I mistype? Checking.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

You're using the right words -just correct the accents and breathing and any obvious typos. Yes, εκβαινει is from the Greek to English sentence, so it was just a typo; but without looking at the book, see if you can write it correctly!

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by malolosgreencat »

Ok. That got messed up.

I thought I posted a new post when instead what happened was I was unknowingly editing the answer post I made earlier. I'll make a new post later on if I still got it wrong.

And...I still don't get what's wrong with the breathing of ὁ ἄνθρωπος. Was what I got wrong writing the definite article too?

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

I see that you corrected the original answers. That's fine-saves you a little typing! No need to retype. Now let's talk about sentences 4 and 5. There are several items:
ὁ δοῦλε, - you correctly used the vocative case. What one-letter word do we usually place before a noun in the vocative case?
ὁ ἄνθρωπος* - "Don't sleep, man..." What case should you use here for 'man' ?

O.K., now here are two items which you may not have picked up on the Reference Grammar:
1. The accent of verbs is regressive, which means the accent will be placed as close to the beginning of the word as it can go (but never more than the 2nd to last syllable, otherwise known as the antepenult), so in the case of εισαγε, where would this be?
2. ἐν τὸν ἀγρόν- If you look at section 27 in the Reference Grammar, you'll find a list of prepositions. If you look at ἐν, you'll see that it takes the dative case, not the accusative. So how should you write "in the field" ?
* It is possible to use this case, but your lesson is looking for you to supply the case talked about in the lesson.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by malolosgreencat »

Aetos wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 4:14 pm I see that you corrected the original answers. That's fine-saves you a little typing! No need to retype. Now let's talk about sentences 4 and 5. There are several items:
ὁ δοῦλε, - you correctly used the vocative case. What one-letter word do we usually place before a noun in the vocative case?
ὁ ἄνθρωπος* - "Don't sleep, man..." What case should you use here for 'man' ?

O.K., now here are two items which you may not have picked up on the Reference Grammar:
1. The accent of verbs is regressive, which means the accent will be placed as close to the beginning of the word as it can go (but never more than the 2nd to last syllable, otherwise known as the antepenult), so in the case of εισαγε, where would this be?
2. ἐν τὸν ἀγρόν- If you look at section 27 in the Reference Grammar, you'll find a list of prepositions. If you look at ἐν, you'll see that it takes the dative case, not the accusative. So how should you write "in the field" ?
* It is possible to use this case, but your lesson is looking for you to supply the case talked about in the lesson.
Sentence 4: ὦ
Sentence 5: ὦ ἄνθρωπε

εἴσαγε

ἐν τῷ αγρῷ

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

Perfect! Keep up the good work!

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by malolosgreencat »

Ο ΔΟΥΛΟΖ

ὁ αὐτουργὸς σπεύδει εἰς τὸν ἀγρὸν καὶ καλεῖ τὸν δοῦλον.
Rough translation: The farmer he hurries into the field and he calls the slave.
Final translation: The farmer hurries into the field and calls the slave.

ὁ δὲ δοῦλος οὐ πάρεστιν· καθεύδει γὰρ ὑπὸ τῷ δένδρῳ.
Rough translation: and/but the slave not present/here/there; he sleeps for under the tree.
Final translation: But the salve is not there; for he sleeps under the tree.

ὁ οὖν δεσπότης βαδίζει πρὸς αὐτὸν καὶ λέγει· "ἐλθὲ δεῦρο, ὦ δοῦλε ἀργέ καὶ πόνει.
Rough translation: so/then the master walks/goes towards him and says "come here, slave lazy and work."
Final translation: So the master walks towards him and says "Come here, lazy slave and work."

ὁ οὖν δοῦλος βαδίζει πρὸς αὐτὸν καὶ λέγει· "μὴ χαλεπὸς ἴσθι, ὦ δέσποτα· ἤδη γὰρ πάρειμι ἐγὼ καὶ φέρω σοι τὸ ἄροτρον.
Rough translation: So/the the slave walks/goes towards him and says "don't be hard, o master; already for I am here I and I carry to you the plow."
Final translation: So the slave walks towards him and says "Don't be harsh, master; I'm already here and I carried the plow to you."

ὁ οὖν δεσπότης λέγει· "σπεῦδε, ὦ Ξανθία· μικρὸς μὲν γὰρ ἐστιν ὁ ἀγρός, μακρὸς δὲ ὁ πόνος
Rough translation: So/then the master says "Hurry, o Xanthias; small on the one hand for the field, large on the other hand the work."
Final translation: So the master says "Hurry Xanthias; For the field is small, but the work long."

1. What is the farmer doing?
The farmer went into the field to call the slave.

2. What is the slave doing?
The slave was sleeping under a tree.

3. When told to come and help, what does the slave do?
The slave comes to the master, carrying the plow.

4. Why is the slave urged to hurry?
Because there is a lot of work to be done.

Exercise 2h
Translate into Greek. When you need to use μέν and another postpositive together, always use μέν before the other postpositive.

1. Dicaeopolis no longer works but loosens the oxen.
ὁ Δικαιόπολις οὐκέτι πόνει ἀλλὰ λύει τοὺς βοῦς.

2.And (use δέ, post positive) then he calls the slave and says: "Don't work any longer (μηκέτἰ) but come here and take the plow.
ὅδε δέ καλεῖ ὁ δοῦλος καὶ λέγει "μηκετι ἀλλὰ ἐλθὴ δεῦρο καὶ λάμβανε τὸν ἄροτρον."

3. "For I (use personal pronoun) on the one hand am driving the oxen to the house, you (σύ) on the other hand carry the plow."
"ἐγὼ γὰρ μέν ἐλαύνω τοὺς βοῦς πρὸς τὸν οἶκον, σύ δέ φέρε τὸν ἄροτρον."

4. So on the one hand Dicaeopolis drives the oxen out of the field, and on the other hand the salve takes the plow and carries it towards the house.
ὁ μὲν Δικαιόπολις ἐλαύνει τοὺς βοῦς ἐκ τοῦ αγροῦ, ὁ δοῦλος δέ λαμβάνε τὸν ἄροτρον καὶ φέρει πρὸς τὸν οἶκον.

Well...how bad is my translation into Attic?

Also, I laughed at learning of the word meketi.. If it really means don't work any longer, then the Philippines' financial center would laugh at the idea that somewhere some word that sounds close to the name of the city means not working any longer or retired.

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Re: My journey through the exercises of Athenaze

Post by Aetos »

Your translation of the story is good. The only correction I'd make is translating this part:
ἤδη γὰρ πάρειμι ἐγὼ καὶ φέρω σοι τὸ ἄροτρον.
Note that φέρω is the present tense, so in this instance you'd want to use present tense of 'bring'. A nice translation for this thought would be " For I'm here already and I'm bringing you the plow."

The answers to the comprehension questions are mostly correct. Strictly speaking, I would phrase the answers in the present tense as they're being asked in the present tense. In the first sentence, the farmer isn't just going-he's hurrying. Otherwise, looks good.

Now let's look at the English-Greek translation exercise (in my edition it's 2g):
1. What form of πονέω should you use here? πόνει or πονεῖ ?
2 ὄδε - I think you got this out of your vocabulary. There is a difference between ὅδε and ὁ δε. The first one is a demonstrative pronoun meaning "this here". The second one means "and he". In this instance, ὁ functions as a personal pronoun "he" and δε as a postpositive.
What is the object of καλεῖ ? What case should that object be in?
Remember to accent μηκετι. This adverb just means "no longer", but we could call Meketi "ἡ τῶν μηκέτι πεπονημένων πόλις"
ἐλθή - I'm betting this is a typo.
What gender is ἄροτρον and what article should it take?
3. αροτρον -see question 2.
μέν should go after ἐγώ and before γάρ. μέν follows the word being contrasted, in this case ἐγώ.
4. Where would you place "so" in this sentence?
What is the correct form of the verb "he takes"?
αροτρον!

All in all, not bad! I can tell you're trying!

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