Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 22 Further Conditional Clauses

Here you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Latin, and more.
Post Reply
MegasKomnenos
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:55 pm

Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 22 Further Conditional Clauses

Post by MegasKomnenos » Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:13 am

Good morning again,

I 'completed' last night the translation passage at the end of Ch. 22, namely Ex. 22.2, p.106 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6P5 ... ks&f=false

I append the Latin here in case the link should die:

Ex. 22.2. HERCULES AND CACUS

Hercules prope Tiberim flumen loco herbido, ut quiete et pabulo reficeret boves et se ipsum via fessum, procubuit. ibi cum eum cibo vinoque gravatum sopor oppressisset, pastor nomine Cacus, ferox viribus, pulchritudne boum eius captus est. sed scivit si eam praedam abreptam in speluncam traxisset, Herculem vestigia eorum quaerentem boves in spelunca inventurum esse. itaque boves aversos caudis traxit. Hercules somno excitus cum gregem spectavisset et partem abesse sensisset, ad speluncam proximan festinavit si forte vestigia eo ferrent. quae ubi omnia foras versa vidit nec in aliam partem ferre, confusus atque incertus animi ex hoc lovo gregem agere coepit. inde cum boves quidam acti mugissent, vox boum in spelunca clausorum reddita ad Herculem pervenit. quem cum ad speluncam vadentem cacus vi prohibere conatus esset, clava ictus ad terram mortuus cecidit.

SUPPLIED VOCABULARY:

herbidus - grassy
pabulum, -i - fodder
vestigium, -i - track
grex, gregis - herd
foras - outside
clava, -ae - club

My workmanlike translation is appended below for your consideration. As usual, I have tried to be fairly literal to illustrate my understanding of the Latin grammar. Again, generally I found this passage - as with the last - easier than that finishing Ch. 20 (an adaption of Sallust I am led to understand by Praepositus and Aetos).

Hercules lay down in a grassy place near the riber Tiber, to restore both his oxen and himself, tired-out by the journey, with rest and fodder. There, when sleep had overcome him, weighted-down by (means of) food and wine, a shepherd by the name of Cacus, fierce in strength [abl. of description/quality/specification?], was taken with the beauty of his [Hercules'] cattle. But he knew that if he dragged the stolen plunder into a cave, Hercules, seeking his cattle, would find their tracks in the cave. And so he dragged the cattle, turned about-face/backward, by their tails. Hercules, roused from sleep, when he had caught sight of his herd and had perceived part of it to be missing, hurried towards the nearest cave (to see understood here?) if perchance their tracks led thither. When he saw these leading outside [turned towards outside] and not into another part (place? This confused me), confused and uncertain he began to lead his herd out of this place. [Then my real difficulties begin!] Then, when certain of the having-been-driven cattle had lowed, the reciprocated [having been returned] voice of the cows shut up in the cave came to Hercules. When Cacus had tried to stop him, hurrying towards the cave, by (means of) force, struck with a club he fell to the ground dead.

Big issues here were precisely what is going on grammatically with 'si forte vestigia eo ferrent', 'quae ubi omnia foras versa vidit nec in aliam partem ferre'. Confirmation that I have 'Inde cum boves quidam acti mugissent, vox boum in spelunca clausorum reddita ad Herculem pervenit.' and 'quem cum ad speluncam vadentem' right in sense at least would be helpful too.

As ever, I would be enormously grateful for the uncovering of howlers and pernickety details - both will help me learn. I thank anyone replying in advance for their generous expenditure of time and effort.

Best wishes, and stay safe,

Jamie

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 22 Further Conditional Clauses

Post by Aetos » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:17 pm

Hi Megale Komnene
MegasKomnenos wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:13 am
fierce in strength [abl. of description/quality/specification?],
I'd go with ablative of quality here as ferox viribus is a description of physical qualities and as such employs the ablative (or genitive) when paired with an adjective.
MegasKomnenos wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:13 am
When he saw these leading outside [turned towards outside] and not into another part (place? This confused me),
Cacus had dragged them into the cave backwards to make it appear as though they had left the cave, so Hercules is probably trying to see where the tracks would lead. However, since they only lead back to where he left the herd, he's confused and uncertain. It's only when the stolen cattle respond back to the lowing of the herd as they are being driven by H. that he realises they must be in the cave and rushes back to recover them.
This story is told by Virgil in Book VIII of the Aeneid, when Aeneas is trying to enlist the aid of Evander, an Arcadian, in his fight against Turnus. During this episode, Evander tells him this story of their patron deity, Hercules. Virgil takes the idea of pulling the cattle backwards by their tails from the Homeric Hymn to Hermes, where Hermes is the cattle thief!

MegasKomnenos
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:55 pm

Re: Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 22 Further Conditional Clauses

Post by MegasKomnenos » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:36 am

Aetos wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:17 pm
Hi Megale Komnene
MegasKomnenos wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:13 am
fierce in strength [abl. of description/quality/specification?],
I'd go with ablative of quality here as ferox viribus is a description of physical qualities and as such employs the ablative (or genitive) when paired with an adjective.
MegasKomnenos wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:13 am
When he saw these leading outside [turned towards outside] and not into another part (place? This confused me),
Cacus had dragged them into the cave backwards to make it appear as though they had left the cave, so Hercules is probably trying to see where the tracks would lead. However, since they only lead back to where he left the herd, he's confused and uncertain. It's only when the stolen cattle respond back to the lowing of the herd as they are being driven by H. that he realises they must be in the cave and rushes back to recover them.
This story is told by Virgil in Book VIII of the Aeneid, when Aeneas is trying to enlist the aid of Evander, an Arcadian, in his fight against Turnus. During this episode, Evander tells him this story of their patron deity, Hercules. Virgil takes the idea of pulling the cattle backwards by their tails from the Homeric Hymn to Hermes, where Hermes is the cattle thief!
Hi Aetos,

Thank you again for taking the time out of your weekend to answer my questions. I really appreciate it. I am sorry I wasn't clear enough - I knew that the cattle were being led backward in order that their tracks should appear to lead away from the cave. I just didn't know if my literal rendering was correct - I was surprised by Seigel's choice of 'partem' rather than 'locum'. I know that in America 'parts' can be used to mean places, as in, 'in these/those parts', but I haven't seen a similar usage in Latin, and the singular troubles me.

quae ubi omnia foras versa vidit nec in aliam partem ferre

Does vidit here introduce oratio obliqua? So grammatically the sentence works thus?:

ubi - temporal clause with indicative
vidit - verb of the temporal clause, itself introducing oratio obliqua
quae...omnia - direct object of the oratio oblique, which are 'doing' the 'ferre'

'When he saw THAT all these [quae - connecting rel.?] were turned outwards and not carried into another part.'

I realise that a literal rendering will always sound slightly bizarre - I read 'and not carried into another part' as meaning 'and not elsewhere' but I find the phrase Seigel has used difficult. And as you can see, I am not 100% sure of my interpretation of the grammar.

Thank you again for your time Aetos, and anyone else that should venture to help.

Best,

Jamie

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 22 Further Conditional Clauses

Post by Aetos » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:36 am

Hi Jamie,
Just a quick word on "in aliam partem": It would seem to be idiomatic: here's what Lewis&Short have to say:

13 In aliam partem, in the opposite direction: antehac est habitus parcus ... is nunc in aliam partem palmam possidet, for the opposite quality Plaut. Most. 1, 1, 32.—

I think 'ferre' can be translated in its active sense into the English, by reading it as "led". I also would read quae…omnia as a subject accusative in indirect discourse introduced by vidit, so:
And when he saw that they all led back outside and not in the other direction...

Now it's back to Xenophon!

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 906
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 22 Further Conditional Clauses

Post by seneca2008 » Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:27 pm

Herculem vestigia eorum quaerentem boves in spelunca inventurum esse
.

Hercules seeking their tracks would find the cattle in the cave. Not "Hercules, seeking his cattle, would find their tracks in the cave." its a matter of logic and word order.
quae ubi omnia foras versa vidit nec in aliam partem ferre
"I know that in America 'parts' can be used to mean places, as in, 'in these/those parts', but I haven't seen a similar usage in Latin, and the singular troubles me."

OLD 12. it can mean a portion of territory, a part, quarter, region... but 13. a. in phrases of type in omnes partes indicating direction

When he saw that all these (vestigia) outside (the cave) led backwards not in any other direction.

I see Aetos has replied too so I will leave it there. OLD is a very useful dictionary for Classical Latin.

Edit this is of course Livy 1.7

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 22 Further Conditional Clauses

Post by Aetos » Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:09 pm

seneca2008 wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:27 pm
Edit this is of course Livy 1.7
Thanks, Seneca-I used Omera Floyd Long's Selections from the First Decade. He only includes the first 4 sentences of 1.7, so I missed the good bits!
P.S. I'm into Act IV of Thyestes. I've been reading each act and then reading a chapter of Schiesaro to get his viewpoint. I suppose at some point I should read some Horace as well as he seems to have had quite a bit of influence on Seneca's poetry.

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 906
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 22 Further Conditional Clauses

Post by seneca2008 » Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:35 pm

Aetos wrote:P.S. I'm into Act IV of Thyestes.
I am struggling a bit with "black floaters" in my left eye. Before Christmas they were evident in my right eye. It make reading an looking at the screen a bit difficult.

I will eventually post something on Thyestes but I would be interested in what you have to say. Virgil and Ovid are also strong influences on Seneca. If you are interested this is helpful:

Senecan Tragedy and the Reception of Augustan Poetry by Christopher V. Trinacty Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2014.

Emily Wilson reviewed it in The Classical Journal , Vol. 112, No. 1 (October-November 2016), pp. 113-115 if you have jstor.

If not "We all know that Senecan tragedy resounds with echoes of earlier Roman poetry, especially of the Augustan period. But these echoes have not been given the systematic attention they deserve. They have often been lumped together as markers of Seneca’s belatedness, or treated only in piecemeal fashion. Christopher Trinacty’s fine new study of the uses of Augustan poetry in Seneca's tragedies makes a strong case for the central importance of these allusions for any thorough understanding of the plays’ poetic mode. Trinacty has a keen ear for verbal allusion, and his close readings are detailed and persuasive, though one longs for a more substantial overall argument." gives the flavour.

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 479
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 22 Further Conditional Clauses

Post by Aetos » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:35 pm

Floaters-I've had them for some time. I do most of my reading now with printed versions , and use the VDU when I need to look something up. One trick I've found is that by keeping my eyes centered on what I'm reading and minimising my eye movements , the floaters tend to "settle". Slowly but surely though, I'm learning to ignore them!
At some point, I do want to explore Schiesaro's notions on the power of poetry in Senecan Tragedy, but I think I'll wait till I've finished reading the whole monograph.

Seneca wrote:
"Senecan Tragedy and the Reception of Augustan Poetry by Christopher V. Trinacty Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2014.

Emily Wilson reviewed it in The Classical Journal , Vol. 112, No. 1 (October-November 2016), pp. 113-115 if you have jstor."

Thanks! I'll look at it this afternoon. Stay well.

MegasKomnenos
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:55 pm

Re: Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 22 Further Conditional Clauses

Post by MegasKomnenos » Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:39 pm

Gentleman,

Thank you both again for all your time and help here - you have both, once again saved me from myself! It is truly appreciated. I hope that both you and yours stay safe.

Best wishes,

Jamie

MegasKomnenos
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:55 pm

Re: Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 22 Further Conditional Clauses

Post by MegasKomnenos » Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:46 pm

Gentleman,

Thank you both again for all your time and help here - you have both, once again saved me from myself! It is truly appreciated. I hope that both you and yours stay safe.

Best wishes,

Jamie

Post Reply