Secular uses of εις.

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Secular uses of εις.

Post by Deutsch » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:04 pm

Does anyone have a list of usages for εις outside of New Testament Greek?

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jeidsath
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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by jeidsath » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:31 pm

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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by Deutsch » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:34 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:31 pm
See the LSJ: http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=32243
Thanks. I have seen that elsewhere, but was wondering if there is any use that supports the English understanding of "because of," or "due to the reason of." I have only ever seen what is covered by the likes of Liddell And Scott.

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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by jeidsath » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:10 pm

Maybe stop being sneaky, and ask about whatever bible verse you were having an internet argument about?
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Deutsch

Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by Deutsch » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:13 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:10 pm
Maybe stop being sneaky, and ask about whatever bible verse you were having an internet argument about?
I'm not being sneaky at all. I am more interested in usage outside of the Bible. I'm not even involved in any argument with anyone over it.

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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by jeidsath » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:32 pm

the English understanding of "because of," or "due to the reason of."
So this "English understanding" is in reference to what?
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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by cb » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:07 pm

Hi, the best coverage of this, I think, is in Silvia 2003, On the Meaning of Prepositions and Cases: The Expression of Semantic Roles in Ancient Greek. Pages 107–117 cover usage of εἰς outside NT Greek: the examples come from Homer, Herodotus, Plato and Thucydides, which should give you a good sense.

When you say you are looking for examples of "because of", "due to the reason of", this is ambiguous. If you mean purpose (i.e. "final" cause), there are examples where a "purpose" sense builds on a "destination" sense, e.g. Iliad 1.226: οὔτέ ποτ᾽ ἐς πόλεμον ἅμα λαῷ θωρηχθῆναι.

I have a feeling, however, that this was not the sense you were looking for.

If you meant "because of", "due to the reason of" in an "efficient" cause sense, I don't know if there's any usage that would support such a reading (I wouldn't expect so and can't think of any off the top of my head).

Cheers, Chad

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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by Deutsch » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:15 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:32 pm
the English understanding of "because of," or "due to the reason of."
So this "English understanding" is in reference to what?
In looking at Matthew 3:11, regarding μετανοιαν. The verse says, "εγω μεν βαπτιζω υμας εν υδατι εις μετανοιαν." I'm wondering if the people coming to be baptized by John were baptized "on the basis of" their repentance prior to baptism or "unto" repentance, or repentant life from there on. Verse 2 contains the present imperative μετανοειτε which might lend itself to the understanding of going forth from the baptism into a life of penitence. I'm not sure if it really matters, but if this baptism could be taken as referring to a prior reason, namely, repentance, as its cause, might there be cases in non-biblical usage that are similar? People much more versed in the classical readings may have input I would find useful. That is one reason I wanted to join this forum. I'd like to expand my exposure some more.

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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by jeidsath » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:37 pm

Much better. Fair notice, however, that this thread will be moved to the Koine Forum shortly.

Now, in the interests of further decreasing sneakiness, let's also mention that this is a common internet argument because of the Jehovah's Witnesses' NWT translation of the Bible, and their rather creative choices in translation?

Obviously they are wrong, but I think it's an interesting question to ask whether Matthew 3:11 (and Acts 2:38) are referring to individual acts of repentance or to a single corporate act/event (think Great Awakening, etc.).
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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by Deutsch » Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:58 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:37 pm
Much better. Fair notice, however, that this thread will be moved to the Koine Forum shortly.

Now, in the interests of further decreasing sneakiness, let's also mention that this is a common internet argument because of the Jehovah's Witnesses' NWT translation of the Bible, and their rather creative choices in translation?

Obviously they are wrong, but I think it's an interesting question to ask whether Matthew 3:11 (and Acts 2:38) are referring to individual acts of repentance or to a single corporate act/event (think Great Awakening, etc.).
Yes, I am aware of the poor NWT, but I'm unaware of any internet argument involving them and this verse.

I'm sorry if I put this in the wrong area of the forum.

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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by jeidsath » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:33 am

I suggest trying something like "I found claim X in source Y, anything to it?" instead of playing a forum version of 20 questions.
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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by Deutsch » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:17 am

jeidsath wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:33 am
I suggest trying something like "I found claim X in source Y, anything to it?" instead of playing a forum version of 20 questions.
Just do me the favor of deleting my account.

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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by jeidsath » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:00 pm

Done.
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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:02 pm

Deutsch wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:17 am
jeidsath wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:33 am
I suggest trying something like "I found claim X in source Y, anything to it?" instead of playing a forum version of 20 questions.
Just do me the favor of deleting my account.

Deutsch
Well, Deutsch, you may not be around to read this, but this is the sort of question that can be answered by the lexicons, which give not only English glosses/definitions, but also provide citations from the literature that you can look up. The LSJ and BrillDag will be very helpful for you to track this down.
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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by jeidsath » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:45 pm

I am likely too prejudiced against anyone who commits the error of dividing Greek between "secular" and the NT. But the introduction to this topic felt far too internet-debatey to me, given his reluctance to bring up what he was actually asking about, though it was obvious enough from the start to anyone who would use Google. Probably fine in another section of the forum, but not in the section that draws the most kooks. Not that there is any real problem with his asking or discussing the question that he was slowly unveiling: "Is there any justification to translating εἰς as 'because of' in Matthew 3:11?"
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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:46 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:45 pm
I am likely too prejudiced against anyone who commits the error of dividing Greek between "secular" and the NT. But the introduction to this topic felt far too internet-debatey to me, given his reluctance to bring up what he was actually asking about, though it was obvious enough from the start to anyone who would use Google. Probably fine in another section of the forum, but not in the section that draws the most kooks. Not that there is any real problem with his asking or discussing the question that he was slowly unveiling: "Is there any justification to translating εἰς as 'because of' in Matthew 3:11?"
If there weren't a theological investment in the answer, it wouldn't be nearly as much of a discussion. I taught a non-credit intro to Greek class when I was in grad school at OSU (they paid extra for it, so yes), open to the general public. I had three young men there who asked this very question about Matt 3:11. Their sole purpose in signing up was to pump for answers on "what the Greek really meant," and once they understood they weren't going to get theological satisfaction, they left the class (despite having paid). So it's not just an internet thing...
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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by Hylander » Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:58 am

So what does the Greek really mean? I'm at a loss.

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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:45 am

Hylander wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:58 am
So what does the Greek really mean? I'm at a loss.
ἐγὼ μὲν ὑμᾶς βαπτίζω ἐν ὕδατι εἰς μετάνοιαν...

I've always taken it in the very broad sense of "with regard to." Most EV's use "for" which itself can be read in more than one way.
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Re: Secular uses of εις.

Post by Lukas » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:02 pm

Plus εἰς is usually a motion toward?
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