iota subscript

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hairetikon
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iota subscript

Post by hairetikon » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:49 am

Do teachers of Anceint Greek tend to pronounce the "iota subscript"? And if yes, is it the case, for example, that οἱ λόγοι and τῷ λόγῷ ryhme with each other?

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jeidsath
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Re: iota subscript

Post by jeidsath » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:46 am

The more interesting question is what practice the ancients used, isn't it? You could throw a rock and hit a half dozen teachers with a half dozen pronunciations. But Allen's advice in Vox Graeca is 1) don't try to pronounce the iota subscript because it is hard 2) but if you are going to try it, the difference in Attic was a vowel quality difference, probably something like [öi] and [oi], which should not rhyme. The new Cambridge Grammar follows #2 in its recommendations, I think.

I realize that you can't see images, but here is Allen:

Image
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hairetikon
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Re: iota subscript

Post by hairetikon » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:29 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:46 am
The more interesting question is what practice the ancients used, isn't it?
That seems reasoable, but Greek education is a whole different beast, right? I mean, who pronounces φ as an aspirated P and not as an F? If you say "I do just that," well, who uses uppercase letters for everything?

I mean, I do get your point, but we are all a bit schizophrenic between the actual Greek and the one used in classes.

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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: iota subscript

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:59 pm

There's actually been quite a bit of discussion on this lately, more in NT Greek circles than in Classics. I would say that up until recently Erasmean pronunciation has been the rule, but not altogether (when I was an undergrad way back in the 20th century I had a professor who used a "modified historical reconstruction" for Attic, although the others in the department used Erasmean).
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jeidsath
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Re: iota subscript

Post by jeidsath » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:04 pm

I'm afraid that I've never been in a Greek or Latin classroom, nor had any education in that line, so I couldn't speak to what either is like.

I do aspirate φ. I do not use capitals for everything. I did teach myself a medieval bookhand, and would recommend the same to others.
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Re: iota subscript

Post by seanjonesbw » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:15 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:04 pm
I did teach myself a medieval bookhand, and would recommend the same to others.
That's interesting - with ligatures? How did you go about it?
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

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Re: iota subscript

Post by jeidsath » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:32 pm

I used the table from Thompson and the digital image of a manuscript that I liked, and copied out lines.
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Re: iota subscript

Post by seanjonesbw » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:07 pm

Thanks - I might give it a go. I've always slavishly aspired to Porson but I'm quite seduced by the medieval squiggles.
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mwh
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Re: iota subscript

Post by mwh » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:56 pm

“somewhat doubtful of fulfilment,” says Sidney Allen, and he says a mouthful. For most of us it’s pointless to try. I ignore iota subscript in reading, just as everybody did in post-classical times, whether for Homer or for anything else.
(People in NT circles will discuss pronunciation endlessly, egged on by an ex-UCLA student. In fact NT pronunciation will have varied widely, depending largely on locality and first language. As indeed it still does.)

As for φ, most teachers in my experience pronounce it as a fricative (our “f”), even at university level, so as to distinguish it from π, which most English-speakers inadvertently aspirate—as Allen used to demonstrate by holding a piece of paper in front of his mouth and saying what I heard as “pee."

If you want to try your hand at a medieval script, I recommend 10th-cent. hands, generally very attractive and consistent. My favorite is Coislinianus gr. 345.

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jeidsath
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Re: iota subscript

Post by jeidsath » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:19 pm

I used Oxoniensis Clarkianus.

After a few years, I feel that I have the fricatives versus aspirates down well enough. And even the iota subscripts. I now believe that it was all fairly pointless and I shouldn't have bothered, but instead followed Allen's advice. On the other hand careful attention to vowel length and meter has been extremely important.
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Andriko
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Re: iota subscript

Post by Andriko » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:04 am

Regarding Medieval script, there is a book on Amazon I have been using to teach myself (https://www.amazon.com/Learn-Write-Medi ... 528&sr=8-1).

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