κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Are you learning Koine Greek, the Greek of the New Testament and most other post-classical Greek texts? Whatever your level, use this forum to discuss all things Koine, Biblical or otherwise, including grammar, textbook talk, difficult passages, and more.
Post Reply
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 959
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC
Contact:

κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:45 pm

44:5 wrote:ἵνα τί ἐκλέψατέ μου τὸ κόνδυ τὸ ἀργυροῦν οὐ τοῦτό ἐστιν ἐν ᾧ πίνει ὁ κύριός μου αὐτὸς δὲ οἰωνισμῷ οἰωνίζεται ἐν αὐτῷ
44:15 wrote:οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι οἰωνισμῷ οἰωνιεῖται ἄνθρωπος οἷος ἐγώ
Was this particular drinking vessel, the κόνδυ, usually associated with augury? Is it a ritual vessel?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

User avatar
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 897
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:06 pm

Well, the problem is that it's an extremely rare word. I couldn't track down the references in the LSJ, but I'm betting that they will not indicate a ritual use. Here is the Hebrew:

גָּבִיעַ: גבע; like → קֻבַּעַת, Eg. loan word qbḥw ? (Koehler JBL 59:36): cs. גְּבִיעַ, גְבִיעִי, גְּבִעִים, גְּבִיעֶיהָ: —1. (drinking) bowl (Sept. κόνδυ, κεράμιον, Tg. כַּלִּידָא, Dalman Arbeit 4:391) Gn 442.12.16f (silver, for fortune-telling, → נחשׁ pi.), Jr 355 (:: the smaller → כּוֹס; Honeyman 80 :: jug Kelso §37); —2. (golden) candleholder Ex 2531-34 3717-20. †

Koehler, L., Baumgartner, W., Richardson, M. E. J., & Stamm, J. J. (1994–2000). The Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament (electronic ed., p. 173). Leiden: E.J. Brill.

The † at the end of the HALOT entry means that every citation in the Tanakh is included.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 959
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Location: Nanchang, PRC
Contact:

Re: κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:53 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:06 pm
Here is the Hebrew:

גָּבִיעַ: גבע; like → קֻבַּעַת, Eg. loan word qbḥw ?
ImageImageImageImageImageImage qbḥw is either a libation (of water), or the vessel for pouring a libation.

That's for the possible relationship between Middle Egyptian and Hebrew.

For the Greek, the passages in the Deinososhists and Eusebius are quite easy to call up.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

User avatar
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 897
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:05 pm

Ah, yes, and that includes the Menander citation I was looking for. But there's nothing in the usages which indicates to me a ritual usage.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 2981
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Post by jeidsath » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:09 pm

The section on κόνδυ in Deipnosophists had a couple of Egyptian references.
Νικόμαχος δ᾽ ἐν πρώτῳ περὶ Ἑορτῶν Αἰγυπτίων φησί: τὸ δὲ κόνδυ ἐστὶ μὲν Περσικόν, τὴν δὲ ἀρχὴν ἣν Ἕρμιππος ἀστρολογικὸς ὡς ὁ κόσμος ἐξ οὗ τῶν θεῶν τὰ θαύματα καὶ τὰ καρπώσιμα γίνεσθαι ἐπὶ γῆς: διὸ ἐκ τούτου σπένδεσθαι.
I would think that it's saying something like "Nikomachus in the first book of Concerning Egyptian Festivals says: the κόνδυ is Persian, but according to Hermippos the Astrologer's Order of the Gods' Blessings and Gifts, it was the first [divine gift] to appear on earth, and this is why they toast from it."

Hermippos is speaking about alcohol, I would think. But I don't know if I have that translation right. The Loeb simply brackets it, and I haven't looked at other translations. But I would think that it's likely something like that.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 581
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Post by seneca2008 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:50 pm

The newest loeb (Athenaeus. The Learned Banqueters, Volume V: Books 10.420e-11. Edited and translated by S. Douglas Olson. Loeb Classical Library 274. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2009.) has:
Νικόμαχος δ᾿ ἐν πρώτῳ Περὶ Ἑορτῶν Αἰγυπτίων φησί· τὸ δὲ κόνδυ ἐστὶ μὲν Περσικόν, τὴν δὲ ἀρχὴν † ἣν Ἕρμιππος ἀστρολογικὸς ὡς ὁ κόσμος ἐξ οὗ τῶν θεῶν τὰ θαύματα καὶ τὰ καρπώσιμα γίνεσθαι ἐπὶ γῆς † διὸ ἐκ τούτου σπένδεσθαι. Παγκράτης δ᾿ ἐν πρώτῳ Βοκχορηΐδος·
αὐτὰρ ὅ γε σπείσας ἐκ κόνδυος ἀργυφέοιο |
b. νέκταρ ἐπ᾿ ἀλλοδαπὴν οἶμον ἔβαινε πόδα.
Nicomachus says in Book I of On Egyptian Festivals (FGrH 662 F 1): The kondu is a Persian vessel, but originally † which the astrologer Hermippus (SH 486 = fr. 102 Wehrli) that the created order from which the marvels and profitable deeds of the gods occurred on earth, † which is why it is used to pour libations. Pancrates in Book I of the Bocchoreïs (SH 602):
But after he poured a libation of nectar from a silver
kondu, he set off on a journey to another land.
The text is corrupt which is no doubt why you had difficulty translating it.

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 2981
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: κόνδυ in augury Gen 44:5, and 15

Post by jeidsath » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:57 pm

Yes, I mentioned that about the Loeb version in my post.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

Post Reply