The word ἀπέδω in the Chronicle of Morea

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anphph
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The word ἀπέδω in the Chronicle of Morea

Post by anphph » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:16 pm

A friend is apparently reading the Chronicle of Morea and asked me what the word ἀπέδω meant in the following passage.
“Ἀπέδω ἐτοῦτο τὸ κιόνι ὀφείλουν ἐγκρεμνίσαι τὸν βασιλέα τὸν ἄπιστον τῆς Κωνσταντίνου Πόλης.”
I said it was probably the word ἀπ' ἐδώ - ἐδώ from Modern/Medieval Greek meaning here - and so the word should mean some variation of "At this place". Was I right?

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opoudjis
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Re: The word ἀπέδω in the Chronicle of Morea

Post by opoudjis » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:12 am

"From here" or "from now on", but yes, it's a variant of απ' εδώ. See http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/ ... =απεδω&dq= (Kriaras' being the dictionary of Early Modern Greek; the online abridgement goes up to παραθήκη, the offline full dictionary is now up to σταματώ.)

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Re: The word ἀπέδω in the Chronicle of Morea

Post by anphph » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:12 pm

Thanks a lot! Also that dictionary seems extremely helpful.

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Re: The word ἀπέδω in the Chronicle of Morea

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:07 pm

The από is with the κιόνι and the εδώ is an adverb of place for the whole phrase, aren't they?

Is ἐγκρεμνίσαι (and Modern γκρεμός) derived directly from the corresponding Classical word, or is it a low register adaption from ἐκκρ. with a voicing of the first kappa, while the words beginning in ἐκκρ. In Modern Greek.are derived high register usage?
Thou wast not born for death, immortal Bird!
No hungry generations tread thee down;
The voice I hear this passing night was heard
In ancient days by emperor and clown:
(Keats, Ode to a nightingale, 1819).

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Re: The word ἀπέδω in the Chronicle of Morea

Post by anphph » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:02 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:The από is with the κιόνι and the εδώ is an adverb of place for the whole phrase, aren't they?
I think not, it seems a rough equivalent to Latin abhinc.

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opoudjis
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Re: The word ἀπέδω in the Chronicle of Morea

Post by opoudjis » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:19 am

anphph wrote:
ἑκηβόλος wrote:The από is with the κιόνι and the εδώ is an adverb of place for the whole phrase, aren't they?
I think not, it seems a rough equivalent to Latin abhinc.
That's a good question. In contemporary Greek απ' εδώ "from here, hence" is an adverb. But in the passage, if απέδω is an adverb, then you've got a bare accusative for "this column" as where the faithless emperor should be hurled off. (Abhinc, hanc columnam jacere debent imperatorem infidelem Urbis Constantini.) And that doesn't make sense: you'd have to have an indication of origin in the sentence. (The expression is unacceptable in contemporary Greek.)

This seems to be rather an apposition, "from here, this column, they should hurl the faithless emperor of the City of Constantine". Even though απέδω is written as a single word, syntactically here it can't be.

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opoudjis
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Re: The word ἀπέδω in the Chronicle of Morea

Post by opoudjis » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:26 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:The από is with the κιόνι and the εδώ is an adverb of place for the whole phrase, aren't they?

Is ἐγκρεμνίσαι (and Modern γκρεμός) derived directly from the corresponding Classical word, or is it a low register adaption from ἐκκρ. with a voicing of the first kappa, while the words beginning in ἐκκρ. In Modern Greek.are derived high register usage?
That the words beginning in εκκρ- are learnèd in Modern Greek follows from the fact that they have an initial unaccented e-; that dropped off in vernacular Greek, as indeed it did in γκρεμός.

That the initial /k/ should be voiced is not impossible (as metanalysis: /ton kremo/ > [toŋ ɡremo]), but it is less likely than an original /engremnos/, and the Triantafyllides dictionary explicitly gives that form as a variant: http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/ ... κρεμός&dq= . Forms starting with e- are common in Early Modern Greek, including Early Cretan literature and the Escorial Digenes. Cypriot used and continues to use /kremmos/.

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Re: The word ἀπέδω in the Chronicle of Morea

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:48 am

Reading on a little for contextualisation, near the end of section 61, there is an ἔνι immediately following a κι. :shock:
κι οὐκ ἔνι ἄλλος ἀπ᾿ αὐτοῦ ἄξιος τῆς βασιλείας·
Thou wast not born for death, immortal Bird!
No hungry generations tread thee down;
The voice I hear this passing night was heard
In ancient days by emperor and clown:
(Keats, Ode to a nightingale, 1819).

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Re: The word ἀπέδω in the Chronicle of Morea

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:26 am

opoudjis wrote:hurled off
I am still in two minds about this. Both "hurled off" and "suspended from" seem plausible. In part it depends which period of the language the authour was utilising, and in part from context.

Reading it from Modern Greek, "hurl" seems like the natural choice, but from Classical, "suspend" is also possible.
Thou wast not born for death, immortal Bird!
No hungry generations tread thee down;
The voice I hear this passing night was heard
In ancient days by emperor and clown:
(Keats, Ode to a nightingale, 1819).

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opoudjis
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Re: The word ἀπέδω in the Chronicle of Morea

Post by opoudjis » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:36 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
opoudjis wrote:hurled off
I am still in two minds about this. Both "hurled off" and "suspended from" seem plausible. In part it depends which period of the language the authour was utilising, and in part from context.

Reading it from Modern Greek, "hurl" seems like the natural choice, but from Classical, "suspend" is also possible.
Not as late as the Chronicle of Morea it isn't (mid 1300s). No instances of the stem recorded with the meaning "suspend" in Early Modern Greek: http://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/ ... =γκρεμ&dq= . (And if the author was classicising, he wouldn't be using a vernacular form of the verb.)

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