Song of Songs 7:3

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Saboi
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Song of Songs 7:3

Post by Saboi » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:34 pm

I being reading Songs and this verse is confusing, , are they two types Deer in this verse or one.

KJV - Two young roes that are twins
NIV - Two fawns, like twin fawns of a gazelle

שני שדיך כשני עפרים תאמי צביה
δύο μαστοί σου ὡς δύο νεβροὶ δίδυμοι δορκάδος
duo ubera tua sicut duo hinuli gemelli capreae
Two breasts are like two fawns twin roes

Songs 7:3
שני : δύο
שדי : μαστοί
כ : σου
כ : ὡς
שני : δύο
עפרים : νεβροὶ
תאמי : δίδυμοι
צביה : δορκάδος

עפרים (Oprim) resembles Νεβρῶν "young of the deer" and this cognates with πάρδος , λεόπαρδος , βρόδον , ῥόδον , παρδιαῖος and these words describe animal with spots or a rosette like pattern.

βρόδων is ברדים in Gen 31:10

Nimrod is Νεβρωδ in Greek, resembles νεβρός and the Hebrew word for λεόπαρδος "spotted lion".


Alternative translation
- Two breasts are like two spotted twin fawns.
Image

Thoughts?

Markos
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Re: Song of Songs 7:3

Post by Markos » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:52 pm

Saboi wrote: שני שדיך כשני עפרים תאמי צביה
δύο μαστοί σου ὡς δύο νεβροὶ δίδυμοι δορκάδος

Thoughts?
χαῖρε.

The basic rule of the Graecus Venetus is to never render a verse exactly like the LXX. As anyone who has ever attempted an L2 paraphrase knows, this can be quite challenging. One of the tools for this the GV uses is to use the dual at every opportunity. Thus:
GV ΩΔΝ 7:4: wrote:τὼ δύω μαστώ σου ὡς δύο νεβρὼ διδύμω δορκάδος.
Saboi wrote:...are they two types Deer in this verse or one.
I think just one, parallelism being as I'm sure you know the central feature of Hebrew poetry.

ἔρρωσο.

Saboi
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Re: Song of Songs 7:3

Post by Saboi » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:00 am

When comparing the Greek and Hebrew versions i always take into account, the amount of
words that make up the verse. They are 8 in verse 7:3 and the GV increases it too 9.

Songs 7:3
1. שני : δύο
2. שדי : μαστοί
3. כ : σου
4. כ : ὡς
5. שני : δύο
6. עפרים : νεβροὶ
7. תאמי : δίδυμοι
8. צביה : δορκάδος

שדי : μαστός, στῆθος , τιτθός

Songs 7:7 compares שדי with clusters of grapes and
the same poetry used in Isaiah 32:12. In Arabic, שדי
becomes - توت (Tut) "Mulberry", in Hebrew, תות שדה
are Strawberries .

This poetry can be made between στῆθος & σταφύλη

σταφύλη means 'plummet' , so the φύλ- suffix equates with פל (Phal) 'Fall"
for שדי פל means "breasts that plummet down' or σταφυλῆς (אשכלת).

σταφίδα 'Raisins, dried breasts' (Hos 9:14 )

Song 2:15
Our vines have tender grapes
κρεμάω - כרם "hanging vines'

Song 2:15 is a very complex verse that compares grapes too Foxes and the Hebrew repeats the word "שועלים שועלים" and the Greek version does not. This verse needs it's own thread.

Saboi
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Re: Song of Songs 7:3

Post by Saboi » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:24 am

Song of Songs 1:2
1. ישק : φιλησάτω
2. ני : με
3. מנשיקות : φιλημάτων
4. פיה : στόματος
5. ו : αὐτοῦ
6. כי : ὅτι
7. טובים : ἀγαθοὶ
8. דדי : μαστοί
9. ך :σου
10. מ : ὑπὲρ
11. יין : οἶνον

This verse can be broken down into 11 words and makes it easier to compare
word by word and find cognates for each word, or find more appropriate words
that better fit the context.

שק /Sq/ : "Kiss" - Osculum , Sugo , ψυχόω , θώ , σύκω
טובים /Tubim/ : "Good" - αγαθοβ (אחי טוב), χρηστοβ (חרי טוב),
דדי /Ddi/ : τιτθοί , θώ , Διδοῖ

Songs distinguishes דדי and שדי but Greek translates
both as μαστοί and thus the distinction must be made in Greek.

Saboi
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Re: Song of Songs 7:3

Post by Saboi » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:20 am

Songs 1:1 reads ל שלמה / τῷ Σαλωμων "To Solomon"
The winery and drunkyard theme of the Song suggests it is addressing Silenus

τῷ Σειληνων : τῷ Σαλωμων

The figure of Silenus appears on early Jewish terracotta oil lamp dating to the 1st century AD, so he was popular among there, Silenus is used as a plural to designate Satyr like beings, is this the reason for the pluralisation of שלמה as Σαλωμων/שלמון.

Saboi
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Re: Song of Songs 7:3

Post by Saboi » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:22 am

The Greek accounts for every word in the Hebrew

Songs 2:11 " 10 words"
כי : ὅτι
הנה : ἰδοὺ
ה : ὁ
סתו : χειμὼν
עבר : παρῆλθεν
ה : ὁ
גשם : ὑετὸς
חלף : ἀπῆλθεν
הלך : ἐπορεύθη
לו : ἑαυτῷ

"For behold the winter passed away, the rain went away and departed him"

The word סתו (Ctu) "Winter" only used in this verse in whole bible
and the Hebrew Lexicon can't define it, so the meaning is Septuagint dependent
and ס/ψ , then סתו from ψῦχος "Cold" e.g סלה/ψαλῶ .

גשם (Gsm) - χάος, κλυσμός , οργασμός
עבר (Obr) - ὑπέρ, ἐπορεύθη
הלך (elk) - τρέχω, ἔτρεχον, ἐτρύγησαν
חלף (Hlp) - κλύζω, κλοπός , λύματα

Saboi
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Re: Song of Songs 7:3

Post by Saboi » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:17 am

Song of Songs is the most unique book of the Septuagint
and Songs 7 seems to be describing a person or a deity.

The word Breast, SDI elsewhere in the Septuagint is often
translated Παντοκράτωρ (Pantocrator), from κρατὴρ "Mixing Vessel"
and appears in Songs 7:2, a translation of AGN (אגן ) a cognate
of ἀγγεῖον "Vessel".

Song 7:5 describes the head of the deity, the word
for Head is RAS(ראש), hence cognate with κράς "Head"
and RAS also means Gall, thus ἐκέρασα "Mix, Mingles"
or κέρας, ῥυτόν , κεράννυμι , πικράς cognate with κρατὴρ
or Παντοκράτωρ .


So the Greek and Hebrew for Head or Horn can mean a mixing vessel or gall
then are actually describing a Rhyton, a conical container formed in the shape of an animal's head
or horns .

Image

In Hebrew, MSRE (משרה) is Liquor, cognate with Sanskrit word for Liquor, रस Rasa and मूत्र Mūtra "Wine" cognate with πικράς , κράς and Mithra.

BQR (בקר ) "Oxen"
BCR (בסר) "Sour Grape"
Pichorion (πιχοριον) "Ox Tongue"

Numbers 6:3 - Liquor of Grapes (משרת ענבים - πικρός οἰνόπων _

The Greek word for Gall is χολή
- ἧ χολή > Alcohol
- χολή κρατήρ > Holy Grail

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