JWW exercises, paragraphs 599, 600, 601

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Koala
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JWW exercises, paragraphs 599, 600, 601

Post by Koala »

Thank you Skylax for your ongoing help!!

[size=150]τούτου τίς ἄν μοι τἀνδρὸς ἦν προνούστερος;[/size]

Some further grist for the mill..

599
1. while they live the brave continue/pass-the-time happily
2. on hearing (this), the soldiers became violent and were extremely angry with Clearchus
3. if one/we must fight, let us fight bravely
4. why did you, being wronged by me, ill treat my country?
5. while neither having been in peril nor undergone hardships, they were much more honoured by Cyrus than the other soldiers
6. for the remaining days the Greeks proceeded safely
7. and he shouts, both in the barbarian tongue and in Greek, that the king is near with a great army
8. therefore they were labouring gladly and eagerly
9. hearing the valour/goodness of Cyrus, they accompanied (him) more cheerfully and eagerly
10. indeed it is necessary to say this: how should we proceed both as safely as possible, and, should there be a need to fight, to battle most-bravely/in-the-best-way
11. being in many hardships, they were proceeding slowly

600
[size=167]α. ἥδιστα εἴθ 0ἤκουον τὸ τοῦ κήρυκος ὄνομα ..ἤ.. ἥδιστα βουλοίμην ἄν ἀκοῦσαι τὸ τοῦ κήρυκος ὄνομα β. Κλέαρχος ἀεὶ ἐκόλαζεν ἰσχυρῶς γ. εἰ ἠμᾶς δεῖ πορεύεσθαι, σχολαίως πορευώμεθα ..ἤ.. εἰ ἀνάγκη ἐστὶ πορεύεσθαι, .. δ. ἠρώτα εἰ οἱοὶ τ 0ὦσιν ἀσφαλῶς μενεῖν ἐν ταῖς κώμαις ..ἤ.. οἱοὶ τ 0εἶεν ἀσφ.. ε. οἵδε οὐκ ἐπόνησον πλέον ἢ οἱ λοιποὶ τῶν στρατιωτῶν[/size]

601
“Consequently I do not fear that I may not have sufficient gifts for my friends, if I accomplish what I’m leading the expedition for, but that I may not have sufficient friends. Also will I give each of (you) Greeks a golden crown.” When they heard this they were both more eager themselves and reported (it) to the others. The generals and certain of the other Greeks were asking him what (there) would be for them if they won. Promising many great things he dismissed (them).

[size=150]γελᾷ δ 0ὁ μῶρος κἄν τι μὴ γελοῖον ᾖ[/size]

Skylax
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Post by Skylax »

599
10. I am not sure that I understand fully your English : in any case the πῶς ἂν applies to both πορευοίμεθα and μαχοίμεθα, because of the τε determining the first word of the first of two coordinate groups : so it means « how should we proceed… and (how should we) fight… »

600
a. I think the second solution is right, the first one expressing regret (« If I could only hear… »). You could simply say « ἥδιστ’ ἂν ἀκούσαιμι… »

g. δεῖ denotes a moral constraint, ἀνάγκη a logical inevitability

d. « could remain » : I would not use a subjunctive here (there is no deliberation), but rather ἄν with a potential optative, so εἰ οἷοί τ’ ἂν εἶεν. – For ἐρωτῶ εἰ ἄν and the optative, see for example Anabasis, 4, 8, 7)

ε. ἐπόνησαν :)

601 – ok

εὐτυχὴς ὁ μῶρος

Charlie Parker
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Re: JWW exercises, paragraphs 599, 600, 601

Post by Charlie Parker »

Sentence 4 of 599 seems illogical to me. I took it to mean "What wrong have I done you that you should mistreat my country?" Or "How have you been wronged by me that you should treat my country badly?"

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seneca2008
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Re: JWW exercises, paragraphs 599, 600, 601

Post by seneca2008 »

Τί ὑπ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἀδικούμενος κακώς έποίες τὴν ἐμὴω χώρᾶν.

"why did you, being wronged by me, ill treat my country?"

I think there is there nothing wrong with the answer originally given. I take Τί (why) with έποίες and "ὑπ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἀδικούμενος" has to be taken together as a sub-clause.

Your first version turns the passive "ὑπ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἀδικούμενος" ( "wronged by me") into the active voice and then introduces a relative clause absent in the Greek. The question is not "what wrong ..." but "why......did you..".



I dont understand what it is you think is "illogical". I understand the sentence to mean "I wronged you so I dont understand why you attacked my country (rather than seek redress from me)". Perhaps there are other interpretations too. Without any context many of the sentences seem a bit odd.

Incidentally it would be helpful if you could type out the Greek if you are going to ask questions about posts which dont include the original Greek you are referring to. (I have just found the text on line so you can copy and paste from the text here https://daedalus.umkc.edu/FirstGreekBook/).
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

mwh
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Re: JWW exercises, paragraphs 599, 600, 601

Post by mwh »

The τί is most naturally understood as going with the participle rather than the main verb. “Wronged in what by me did you harm my land?” This corresponds more or less to Charlie’s understanding of the sense (but note that αδικουμενος is present tense). For the construction compare the common τί βουλόμενος … “Wanting what …?” i.e. “Why …?”
(Correct κακώς to κακῶς and έποίες to ἐποίεις (and ἐμὴω to ἐμὴν).

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seneca2008
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Re: JWW exercises, paragraphs 599, 600, 601

Post by seneca2008 »

Thanks for that Michael. When laid out as you have done its obvious I was wrong. (And thanks too for the correction to the accents I had typed them out and only later found an on line source which I could have copied. I find typing greek challenging- still! ). :D
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

Vasile Stancu
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Re: JWW exercises, paragraphs 599, 600, 601

Post by Vasile Stancu »

If we take the τί to mean what, then my impression is that the original sentence is not complete: something like .. ὅτι κακῶς ἐποίεις... would perhaps make it complete. I am inclined to understand the meaning of the sentence like this: Why, since I wronged you [personally], did you harm my land? The idea would be that a disproportionately strong response was triggered by a relatively small offense.

mwh
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Re: JWW exercises, paragraphs 599, 600, 601

Post by mwh »

No, it’s a complete sentence as it stands. Your ὅτι κακῶς ἐποίεις would deprive it of a main verb. The only question is whether the τί is best taken with ἀδικούμενος or with έποίεις. The former gives much better sense.

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