Septuagint Jonah

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bingley
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Septuagint Jonah

Post by bingley »

1:6

καὶ προσῆλθεν πρὸς αὐτ\ν ὁ πρωρεὺς καὶ εἰ=πεν αὐτῷΤί σὺ ῥέγχεις; ἀνάστα καὶ ἐπικαλοῦ τὸν θεόν σου, ὅπως διασώσῆ ὁ θεὸς ἡμᾶς καὶ μὴ ἀπολώμεθα. πρωρεὺς doesn't appear to be in the LSJ. It's obviously some sort of ship's officer. Does anyone know more precisely?

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klewlis
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Post by klewlis »

Bauer doesn't seem to have it listed (!) but L&S says:

[size=134]πρωρευς, ὁ, [/size]([size=134]πρωρα[/size]) = [size=134]πρωρατης[/size]

and then:
[size=134]πρωρατης[/size]: a man who stood at the ship's head to give signals to the steersman, a look-out man.

(sorry I can't find the iota subscript! :)

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Post by klewlis »

ps: I just realized that I didn't find it in bauer because it only contains NT... I thought it had LXX as well! apparently I have never tried to read in LXX... :)

what are you using for a lexicon??

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Post by Kopio »

The LEH Lexicon gives this definition:
PRWREUS,-EWS N3M 0-0-2-0-0-2 Ez 27:29; Jon 1:6 officer in
command at the bow (of a ship) Cf. Walters 1973, 69

It is a noun masc sing nom

Hope this helps!

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Post by bingley »

Just the Perseus LSJ. I can't find a Septuagint online which is linked to a lexicon.

I'm working my way through a set of meditations for Lent and decided to combine them with my language work by reading the Septuagint or the Greek NT if I'm studying Greek and the Vulgate if I'm studying Latin.

Thanks for the help both of you.

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Post by Kopio »

Just a side note....the LEH Lexicon is the only true Septuagint Lexicon out there....it's a two part, paperback set that runs around $60-80 US Dollars. I have used it extensively doing Data Base work for the software company that I work for.

The Lexicon was put together by three European Gentlemen (Lu$t, Eynickel, and Hauspie) and they did a pretty stand up job of it....however, it does have several rather bothersome quirks. The German Bible Society Publishes it...you can get it at Amazon Here... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846
It appears to be on sale right now...note that the link is only for Volume One.

Hope this helps

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Post by bingley »

thanks for the reference, Matt, but that's rather more than my book-buying budget will allow -- especially when shipping is added :shock:

Jonah Chapter 2, v. 6

[size=200]περιεχύθη ὕδωρ μοι ἕως ψυχῆς, ἄβυσσος ἐκύκλοωσέν με ἐσχάτη, ἔδυ ἡ κεφαλή μου εἰς σχισμὰς ὀρέων. [/size]

What does [size=200]ἔδυ [/size] mean? Perseus can't parse it.

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Post by Skylax »

bingley wrote: What does [size=200]ἔδυ [/size] mean? Perseus can't parse it.
Strangely, I have got a parsing from Perseus : from δύω 2

I would say it is a 3rd person singular (athematic) aorist II indicative from δύομαι (this aorist ἔδυν, ἔδυς, ἔδυ etc. has a form of active voice but the meaning is of middle voice), thus "my head went into mountain clefts".

χᾶιρε

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Post by bingley »

Thanks skylax

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Post by bingley »

Jonah 3:3

[size=200] καὶ ἀνέστη ιωνας καὶ ἐπορεύθη εἰς νινευη, καθὼς ἐλαλησεν κύριος· ἡ δὲ νινευη ἦν πόλις μεγάλη τῷ θεῷ ὡσει πορείας ὁδοῦ ἡμερῶν τριῶν [/size]

Would anyone care to comment on the dative of [size=200]τῷ θεῷ [/size]

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Post by Skylax »

In my eyes, it is a dative of reference : see Smyth section 1496, so meaning that the city was large "in the eyes of God". Following the comments of my Bible, it matches a Hebraic superlative ("l'expression la plus forte du superlatif en hébreu", it says).

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Post by bingley »

I did wonder if it might be. Thanks for the confirmation, Skylax.

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Re: Septuagint Jonah

Post by Ιακοβ »

In my eyes, it is a dative of reference : see Smyth section 1496, so meaning that the city was large "in the eyes of God".
I had this same question. My English dominant brain reads it as: "in the eyes of God". But I do wonder if there is another legitimately plausible option. It leads to the associated question regarding "μεγάλη".

Does the text naturally imply the city is "large" in the eyes of God, or does it carry more of a "powerful" or "mighty" (or is it all the same in the end?)

I realize this is an ancient thread, but I'll reply here, as it is my literal exact topic

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Re: Septuagint Jonah

Post by phalakros »

Ιακοβ wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:42 am Does the text naturally imply the city is "large" in the eyes of God, or does it carry more of a "powerful" or "mighty" (or is it all the same in the end?)
Here’s the passage:

(3:2) ᾿Ανάστηθι καὶ πορεύθητι εἰς Νινευη τὴν πόλιν τὴν μεγάλην καὶ κήρυξον ἐν αὐτῇ κατὰ τὸ κήρυγμα τὸ ἔμπροσθεν, ὃ ἐγὼ ἐλάλησα πρὸς σέ. (3) καὶ ἀνέστη Ιωνας καὶ ἐπορεύθη εἰς Νινευη, καθὼς ἐλάλησεν κύριος· ἡ δὲ Νινευη ἦν πόλις μεγάλη τῷ θεῷ ὡσεὶ πορείας ὁδοῦ ἡμερῶν τριῶν (4) καὶ ἤρξατο Ιωνας τοῦ εἰσελθεῖν εἰς τὴν πόλιν ὡσεὶ πορείαν ἡμέρας μιᾶς καὶ ἐκήρυξεν καὶ εἶπεν ῎Ετι τρεῖς ἡμέραι καὶ Νινευη καταστραφήσεται.

μέγας can refer to size (large) or quality/value (great, mighty, important). Size should be the thing at issue here—it’s a three journey across the city! But that makes τῷ θεῷ rather odd. It reflects an issue with the Hebrew source:

ונינוה היתה עיר גדולה לאלהים

Which could mean “Nineveh was a large/great city, exceedingly so (לאלהים)” or “a large city of/belonging to God,” among other things. The problem is that לאלהים isn’t regularly superlative (“exceedingly so”; more regular would be עיר אלהים). In any case, the Old Greek clearly takes it as “to God,” not as a superlative (which would be eg πόλις μεγίστη). So the sense of the Greek, unlike the Hebrew, is closer to “mighty/important to God.” That gives a different literary valence to the fact that Nineveh immediately repents (even the livestock!) and God spares it from his wrath. It’s not just a large city, but great and important to God.

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Re: Septuagint Jonah

Post by jeidsath »

I'm happy that my (imperfect) recovery of the old 2004-2007(?) Textkit Greek fonts paid off. There are a number of proposed (but not exact) Old Testament parallels to this (best probably Gen 10:9), but Robert Alter makes the case for "belonging to". I'm still a beginner at Hebrew, so I don't know.

What's interesting to me is that the expression seems to have come into the Greek, perhaps by way of the Septuagint (or maybe the Hebrew more directly?). It's found at Acts 7:20 where Moses ἦν ἀστεῖος τῷ Θεῷ. Maybe Luke 1:6 ἐναντίον τοῦ θεοῦ, especially if you buy the Genesis 10:9 parallel, where LXX translates ἐναντίον κυρίου. The Acts verse especially seems to indicate how a Greek reader would have understood the LXX of Jonah 3:3, which I understand as something like "as perceived by" in Acts.

Phalakros mention of cattle reminded me of this (now very old!) discussion, which should never have perished off of the internet (as long as we are resurrecting ancient threads). It includes the wonderful line "the New International Version: a translation that I cannot recommend weakly enough", but the last paragraph discussing what the NJB (Tolkien!) got wrong about the Assyrians actually being "likened to cattle" and is why I link it.

https://web.archive.org/web/20100625043 ... the-rings/

EDIT:

Adding two more LXX attacks on not quite the same Hebrew expression.

Psalm 80:10 MT, translated as κέδρους τοῦ θεοῦ in LXX 79:11.
Pslam 36:6MT, ὄρη θεοῦ in LXX 35:7.
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Re: Septuagint Jonah

Post by phalakros »

On the Hebrew, the construct form עיר אלהים would be paralleled as an intensifier. The issue is the preposition le-. It would be the only instance of this usage. I studied Biblical Hebrew for years but I’m not at all an expert (I very rarely read it anymore).

Some NT scholars have claimed that τῷ θεῷ (influenced by the idiom supposedly reflected in Jonah 3:3) is equivalent to σφόδρα, μάλα, or the like in Acts 7:20 and a few other passages. A special, NT-only use of the dative! I don’t buy it at all. For sure, the verse in Acts alludes to and imitates the LXX, but τῷ θεῷ is just a regular dative, as Joel suggested.

About the livestock, I was referring to the fact that in ch 3 they too put on sackcloth and shout to the god of Israel.

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Re: Septuagint Jonah

Post by persequor »

Joel, thanks for reminding us of this old thread. It was produced before I joined, so I was not aware of it. I found it fascinating that Tolkien had a role in the translation of the Bible, even if a modest one.

Alas, I too can't afford the Septuagint lexicon referenced. However, there are some online alternatives which, though limited, are of some use and have the virtue of being free to access.

First there is Kata Biblion, which offers a New Testament lexicon which also includes LXX occurrence info. Here's a link to their entry on πέτρα: https://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.ph ... F%81%CE%B1

There is also Greekdoc.com, which has an analytical Greek lexicon and parsing info not only for its Greek NT texts, but also for the LXX and even the Apostolic Fathers. Here is their entry on our friend πρωρεύς and its neighbors:

http://www.greekdoc.com/bible/lexicon/prw.html#prwreus

It should also be noted that LSJ does have some LXX vocab coverage, even though its focus is on classical Greek.
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Re: Septuagint Jonah

Post by jeidsath »

The beasts are to be covered in sackcloth (well, cover themselves) and fast. Having the shouting refer explicitly to them might be an enthusiastic interpretation, not really forced. But maybe it was just an enthusiastic author? I included the link because Davar Akher dislikes Tolkien's interpretation in his note, saying that the beasts are made to fast (he doesn't mention the sackcloth) and then spared to highlight the brutishness and beast-like qualities of the Assyrians, who are basically cattle. For Tolkien, it shows God's love.

For what it's worth, Alter seems to side firmly with Tolkien. The sackcloth and fasting exaggerate the sweeping nature of the repentance, and then God's pity for the qiqayon displays "His compassion."
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Re: Septuagint Jonah

Post by Ιακοβ »

phalakros wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:59 pm μέγας can refer to size (large) or quality/value (great, mighty, important). Size should be the thing at issue here—it’s a three journey across the city! But that makes τῷ θεῷ rather odd. It reflects an issue with the Hebrew source:

ונינוה היתה עיר גדולה לאלהים

Which could mean “Nineveh was a large/great city, exceedingly so (לאלהים)” or “a large city of/belonging to God,” among other things. The problem is that לאלהים isn’t regularly superlative (“exceedingly so”; more regular would be עיר אלהים). In any case, the Old Greek clearly takes it as “to God,” not as a superlative (which would be eg πόλις μεγίστη). So the sense of the Greek, unlike the Hebrew, is closer to “mighty/important to God.” That gives a different literary valence to the fact that Nineveh immediately repents (even the livestock!) and God spares it from his wrath. It’s not just a large city, but great and important to God.
Thank you, this is extremely helpful. The observation that the text already makes clear that the city is physically large, does make the interpretation "Nineveh was considered a _large_ city in the sight of God" rather redundant. Meaning mighty/important(special) seems a more natural reading. The ability to contrast against the Hebrew is a skill I have yet to learn. But my Hebrew will catch up at some point I am sure.
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