study a NT book

Are you learning Koine Greek, the Greek of the New Testament and most other post-classical Greek texts? Whatever your level, use this forum to discuss all things Koine, Biblical or otherwise, including grammar, textbook talk, difficult passages, and more.
GTM
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Re: study a NT book

Post by GTM » Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:17 pm

sid4greek
I SEE YOUR POINT NOW...could we be dealing with both revelatory and morality??
I believe that what you have suggested here is highly likely.

GTM

sid4greek
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Re: study a NT book

Post by sid4greek » Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:14 pm

so...where do we go from here...? :roll:
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GTM
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Re: study a NT book

Post by GTM » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:27 pm

sid4greek
so...where do we go from here...?
Good question. :D

In 1 John 2:3 we see 2 καὶ αὐτὸς ἱλασμός ἐστιν περὶ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν, οὐ περὶ τῶν ἡμετέρων δὲ μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου.

In some translations we see the term ἱλασμός being understood as propitiation and some texts it is understood as expiation. These two terms carry very different meanings. Why such a contrast?

GTM

sid4greek
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Re: study a NT book

Post by sid4greek » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:49 pm

GTM wrote:sid4greek
so...where do we go from here...?
Good question. :D

In 1 John 2:3 we see 2 καὶ αὐτὸς ἱλασμός ἐστιν περὶ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν, οὐ περὶ τῶν ἡμετέρων δὲ μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου.

In some translations we see the term ἱλασμός being understood as propitiation and some texts it is understood as expiation. These two terms carry very different meanings. Why such a contrast?

GTM

rightio!!

:D
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GTM
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Re: study a NT book

Post by GTM » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:08 am

sid4greek

1 John 2:2 (RSV)

and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Should have given this in my last post.

Sorry! :oops:

GTM

sid4greek
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Re: study a NT book

Post by sid4greek » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:48 pm

GTM wrote:sid4greek

1 John 2:2 (RSV)

and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Should have given this in my last post.

Sorry! :oops:

GTM


so we have two renderings of the same Greek word....

- the Greek word includes both meanings of propitiation and expiation, but English seemingly doesn't have a word which includes the two concepts. So we have a problem. is this why some may use propitiation and others expiation?? Why?

Propitiation implies expiation, but expiation doesn't refer to God's anger. Clearly, Christ removed sin (i.e. expiation) and thus God was made propitious to us. So how come translators just use only part of the meaning of the word? can't they translate the Greek word as both expiation and propitiation ?

are translators deliberately excluding one of the two for some "doctrinal" reason?
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GTM
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Re: study a NT book

Post by GTM » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:35 pm

sid4greek
Propitiation implies expiation, but expiation doesn't refer to God's anger.


But yet the scriptures clearly point to the idea of God's wrath towards the unrighteous.

What did John have in mind here? I am not sure.
Clearly, Christ removed sin (i.e. expiation) and thus God was made propitious to us.
I agree.
So how come translators just use only part of the meaning of the word? can't they translate the Greek word as both expiation and propitiation ?
Good question.

It would seem to me that both are required if we are to clearly understand this text. But your next question challenges my thought on that since the translators didn't do that.
are translators [/u]deliberately excluding one of the two for some "doctrinal" reason?


What would be their reason for that?

GTM

sid4greek
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Re: study a NT book

Post by sid4greek » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:54 pm

let me think about it... :)
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GTM
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Re: study a NT book

Post by GTM » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:50 pm

sid4greek

you said:
let me think about it
Take your time. :D I have about a thousand other questions on first John that I will eventually post but I like to address them one at a time and this happened to be the next on my list. :?:

I know that the Old testament LXX used ἱλασμός several times and it's usage seems to fluctuate between expiation and propitiation. I don't know if that will help or not.

GTM

BillWood
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Re: study a NT book

Post by BillWood » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:39 pm

Just a quick heads up guys
You have another lurker out here : ) My Greek knowledge is pretty limited, but hopefully I won't stay that too much longer. I've collected all your posts so far, and plan on catching up to at least these last posts. If you don't mind backtracking a bit I'll ask a question or two when the time comes. Probably will not be too difficult for you guys from what I've read so far. I saw the thread almost died, or at least one or two of you thought it might, so am glad that it did not. So, thanks for hanging in there, and for taking your time : ) I do have several books, but am not confident enough in my skills to know beyond a doubt what I will be talking about : ) My favorite so far is George Ricker Berry (SP) and am looking over several Grammar books at the moment. Let me know you guys plan on finishing the project, and maybe going into second and third John next??? : ) I need the studies
Thanks Guys
Bill

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