Question

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modus.irrealis
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Question

Post by modus.irrealis » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:44 am

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding the following hymn:

Ἡ ἀπόῤῥητος Λόγου Θεοῦ κατάβασις, ὅπερ Χριστὸς αὐτός ἐστι, Θεὸς καὶ ἄνθρωπος, τὸ Θεὸς οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν εἶναι ἡγησάμενος, ἐν τῷ μορφοῦσθαι δοῦλον δεικνύει τοῖς Μαθηταῖς· ἐνδόξως γὰρ δεδόξασται.

It starts off "the ineffable descent of the Word of God" and I'm guessing ὅπερ refers back to λόγου despite being neuter, but what does the τὸ go with? At first I thought it goes with εἶναι but as far as I know ἡγοῦμαι does't work that way. And why is Θεός nominative here? And what does the descent, if κατάβασις is in fact the subject of δεικνύει show the disciples?

Also with this hymn:

Διακονῆσαι αὐτὸς ἐλήλυθα, οὗ τὴν μορφὴν ὁ πλαστουργὸς ἑκὼν περίκειμαι, τῷ πτωχεύσαντι Ἀδὰμ ὁ πλουτῶν θεότητι, θεῖναι ἐμήν τε αὐτοῦ ψυχὴν ἀντίλυτρον ὁ ἀπαθὴς θεότητι.

The τε there at the end is misplaced, right? And it's confusing me. Does this really mean "have come ... to set mine and his soul as ransom" which doesn't seem quite right. Or is the word order more scrambled and it's "to set my soul as ransom of (=for) him", which now that I think of it seems more likely?

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Re: Question

Post by IreneY » Fri May 01, 2009 6:14 pm

Got the answer to one question. I'll stare blankly on my screen again after the weekend trying to figure the other ones too :) (though you really shouldn't hold your breath).

Quite a lot of googling different things brought me to a result that made some things clear. Namely, some comments on Paul's epistle to Philippians.
I quote the actual passage from Ph 2: 5-8 (from myriobiblos)
5 τοῦτο φρονείσθω ἐν ὑμῖν ὃ καὶ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, 6 ὃς ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ, 7 ἀλλ' ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσε μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος, 8 καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος ἐταπείνωσεν ἑαυτὸν γενόμενος ὑπήκοος μέχρι θανάτου, θανάτου δὲ σταυροῦ
After this find, I think you'll agree, things become more clear. "το είναι Θεός ουχ αρπαγμόν (εστί) ηγησάμενος" ; that's how I read this phrase.

I am not sure exactly what Jesus shows the disciples but maybe humility, by taking the from of a slave(? "slave" is probably not the right translation here but I don't know the right ecclesiastical term in English so I thought I'd just point out which word I am talking about)

That's all I could do. Not sure about my reading of the whole thing but maybe the quote will help :)

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Re: Question

Post by modus.irrealis » Fri May 01, 2009 6:55 pm

Thank you. That solves it. I'm noticing the word order can be very ... "poetic" but I didn't think of moving εῑναι up.

And the usual translation I've seen for δοῦλος is "servant" -- I dont' think people would take it well if "slave" were used.

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Re: Question

Post by IreneY » Fri May 01, 2009 7:22 pm

Servant! Right! I did know that. Blame it on my brain getting (once again) completely and utterly stuck. Sorry about that :oops:

Note: Found this translation (myriobiblos again) of the second passage in modern Greek. Don't know how accurate it is but maybe it can help?

Ἐγώ, ὁ τέλειος Θεός, ἔχω ἔλθει στὴ γῆ γιὰ νὰ ὑπηρετήσω αὐτόν, τοῦ ὁποίου τὴ μορφὴ φέρω ὡς Πλαστουργὸς μὲ τὴ θέλησή μου, δηλαδὴ τὴ μορφὴ τοῦ Ἀδάμ, ὁ ὁποῖος μὲ τὴ πτώση τοῦ πτώχευσε ἀπὸ τὰ θεῖα του χαρίσματα. Παρόλο ποὺ εἶμαι ἀπαθὴς Θεός, ἦλθα γιὰ νὰ προσφέρω τὴ ζωή μου ὡς λύτρο γιὰ τὴν ἀπελευθέρωση τοῦ παραβάτη.

First read (glance really) seems to indicate the translator ignores "te"

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Re: Question

Post by modus.irrealis » Fri May 01, 2009 7:37 pm

It's almost more paraphrase (and amplification) than translation. I think the τε corresponds to the period :o. So they took it as θεῖναι τε ἐμὴν... which I think makes the most sense.

And it looks like myriobiblos is more useful than I knew. But it's oddly not showing up in google unless I explicitly add site:myriobiblos.gr. Thanks again.

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Re: Questions

Post by modus.irrealis » Sat May 02, 2009 4:08 am

I've run into some more difficulties. First, with

Τὴν συναγωγὴν συκῆν Χριστὸς Ἑβραίων, καρπῶν ἄμοιρον πνευματικῶν εἰκάζων, ἀρᾷ ξηραίνει·

Obviously the word order is scrambled, so is it: Χριστὸς τὴν συναγωγὴν Ἑβραίων, (αυτὴν) συκῆν ἄμοιρον καρπῶν πνευματικῶν (εἶναι) εἰκάζων, ἀρᾷ ξηραίνει? But I'm not sure that makes the best sense.

--

I just want to double-check my translation of the next one:

Ἔφριξε παίδων εὐαγῶν τὸ ὁμόστολον ψυχῆς ἄσπιλον σῶμα καὶ εἶξε τὸ τραφὲν ἐν ἀπείρῳ ὕλῃ ἀκάματον πῦρ. Ἀειζώου δὲ ἐκμαρανθείσης φλογός, διαιωνίζων ὕμνος ἀνεμέλπετο·

The stainless body of the pure children together with their soul shuddered and withdrew from the tireless fire that is nourish by limitless fuel. And when the ever-living flame had withered away, the perpetual hymn was raised:

--

Finally, this next one I have no idea, and I'm hoping it's because it's late and I need to get some sleep, but anyway, it's:

Τάξεως ἔμπαλιν ὑμῖν ἐθνικῆς ἔστω τὸ κράτος ὁμογενῶν· οὐ κλῆρος γὰρ ἐμός, τυραννὶς δέ, γνώμη αὐθαίρετος.

I'm pretty sure the first part says something like "let the power of ?? be against you" but I don't see how. The second part is meaningless to me. If it helps the rest of the hymn is Ὁ οὖν πρόκριτος ἐν ὑμῖν εἶναι θέλων τῶν ἄλλων ἔστω πάντων ἐσχατώτερος· καὶ Κύριον γινώσκοντες με, ὑμνεῖτε καὶ ὑπερψοῦτε εἰς πάντας τοὺς αἰῶνας.

Any help would me much appreciated.

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Re: Question

Post by modus.irrealis » Mon May 04, 2009 12:33 am

Adding a couple more questions:

In the following, what does the ταῖς ... ἡδοναῖς go with?

Δεῦτε οὖν καὶ ἡμεῖς, κεκαθαρμέναις διανοίαις συμπορευθῶμεν αὐτῷ καὶ συσταυρωθῶμεν καὶ νεκρωθῶμεν δι’ αὐτὸν ταῖς τοῦ βίου ἡδοναῖς·

I kind of want to take it with κεκαθαρμέναις but in addition to the distance the meaning would have to be "cleansed of the pleasures of life" but wouldn't this need the genitive or a preposition like ἀπό? Can it be taken with συσταυρωθῶμεν καὶ νεκρωθῶμεν so something like "be crucified and die together with the pleasures of life". It's similar to ideas in the Epistle to the Galatians, e.g. 6:14 δι’ οὗ [Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ] ἐμοὶ κόσμος ἐσταύρωται κἀγὼ κόσμῳ, which I don't completely get, or maybe 5:24 οἱ τοῦ Χριστοῦ τὴν σάρκα ἐσταύρωσαν σὺν τοῖς παθήμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις.

--

What is προφήτην doing in the following:

Πῶς τῶν ῥημάτων μου ἀμνημονεῖτε, ὧν πάλαι εἶπον ὑμῖν, ὅτι προφήτην πάντα οὐ γέγραπται, εἰ μὴ ἐν Ἰερουσαλὴμ ἀποκτανθῆναι;

I think the meaning is clear -- I understand something like "nothing has been written in the prophets if not that be killed in Jerusalem ... Actually, now that I'm puzzling over who the subject of ἀποκτανθῆναι is, I'm thinking, maybe it's προφήτην so it would be "nothing has been written, if not that a prophet will be killed in Jerusalem"?

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Re: Question

Post by IreneY » Thu May 21, 2009 7:16 pm

Took my sweet time didn't I? Sorry about that!

OK first: Fig tree question :) I think you are right. That's how I read it and this essay (?) seems to agree with us :D

The second one I have no collaborative evidence but I think you are right. Koine Greek is not my specialty though so you probably know best.

Third one I really can't tell. It confuses me a lot I must say so i will have to work on it a bit.

As for "Δεῦτε οὖν καὶ ἡμεῖς, κεκαθαρμέναις διανοίαις συμπορευθῶμεν αὐτῷ καὶ συσταυρωθῶμεν καὶ νεκρωθῶμεν δι’ αὐτὸν ταῖς τοῦ βίου ἡδοναῖς·" : Could it be the object of νεκρωθωμεν? That's how I read it at least.

As for the last one: I think it refers to the following quote by Luke (13:33) " 33 πλὴν δεῖ με σήμερον καὶ αὔριον καὶ τῇ ἐχομένῃ πορεύεσθαι, ὅτι οὐκ ἐνδέχεται προφήτην ἀπολέσθαι ἔξω Ἱερουσαλήμ." Haven't checked its syntactical role though if that's what you are asking.

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Re: Question

Post by modus.irrealis » Fri May 22, 2009 3:34 pm

Thanks again. And this is all from the services for Holy Week, and that's a year or so away, so I've got all the time in the world and I'm taking it easy with this. (You know, when I was a kid, I used to call it "Big Week" :lol:).

I'll be back soon with an actual response to your points.

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Re: Question

Post by modus.irrealis » Sun May 24, 2009 3:33 pm

IreneY wrote:OK first: Fig tree question :) I think you are right. That's how I read it and this essay (?) seems to agree with us :D
Thanks for the link. I was kind of hoping to be wrong...
Third one I really can't tell. It confuses me a lot I must say so i will have to work on it a bit.
I still can't figure anything out with this one.
As for "Δεῦτε οὖν καὶ ἡμεῖς, κεκαθαρμέναις διανοίαις συμπορευθῶμεν αὐτῷ καὶ συσταυρωθῶμεν καὶ νεκρωθῶμεν δι’ αὐτὸν ταῖς τοῦ βίου ἡδοναῖς·" : Could it be the object of νεκρωθωμεν? That's how I read it at least.
So taking νεκρωθῶμεν with a (quasi)active sense?

Edit: I'm not quite sure why I said it this way, but I meant to say, taking νεκρωθῶμεν as something like "dying to the pleasures of life"?
As for the last one: I think it refers to the following quote by Luke (13:33) " 33 πλὴν δεῖ με σήμερον καὶ αὔριον καὶ τῇ ἐχομένῃ πορεύεσθαι, ὅτι οὐκ ἐνδέχεται προφήτην ἀπολέσθαι ἔξω Ἱερουσαλήμ." Haven't checked its syntactical role though if that's what you are asking.
Yeah, it was the syntax there that got me confused, but I now think my mistake was taking πάντα to be neuter -- it makes much better sense to read it as masculine and then it's just "is it not written that every prophet must be killed [nowhere] except in Jerusalem?" where it's a question that's being quoted not a statement.

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