נערָ = παρθένον ?

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jaihare
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Re: נערָ = παρθένον ?

Post by jaihare » Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:29 am

Kasper wrote:Interesting. from my limited knowledge of biblical hebrew, the vowels were later added, and would not have appeared in the original text. So without the 'he' in the original, aren't we simply left with a young man, rather than a young woman?
Correct that the form נער is normally used of boys (LOL), but two things: (1) there was an oral tradition about how to read the word in these contexts; and, (2) the context has agreement clues (adjectives and verbal forms that bear feminine forms that agree with נערה rather than נער). Know what I mean?

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Re: נערָ = παρθένον ?

Post by Kasper » Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:48 am

jaihare wrote:Know what I mean?
i do.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”

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Re: נערָ = παρθένον ?

Post by christophe » Sat May 30, 2009 7:16 pm

I fully agree with the fact that parthenos means a marriageable girl both in Classical Greek and in the book of Genesis. I also agree with the fact that it had the meaning of 'virgin' in the other instances of this word in the Greek Bible, mainly because it was systematically used to translate betulah. With respect to 'almah, the word meant a 'young virgin': that is the meaning given several times in their commentaries by Rashi, Ben Gershon and other Rabbis from the Middle Ages. The difference between betulah and 'almah is that the latter word adds the idea of youth.

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Prometheus
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Re: נערָ = παρθένον ?

Post by Prometheus » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:27 pm

You are correct in your assertion.

Recently I have found myself in the middle of a study of the Masoretic text. Here is what I see:

I am of the opinion that the Oldest Reliable text is the LXX. It was the Masoretic Text that changed the meaning or added to it when speaking of Parthenos. I do not believe that it was always understood as a young woman but the older texts clearly point to "virgin".

The Masoretes seemed to be interested in one thing and that was to have a Hebrew Text. Since Christianity was in full swing their bias away from Christianity influenced their interpretation of the older texts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/di ... _id=156701

GTM
So it appears that GTM is using this discussion as an opportunity to rehash the old, discredited, extreme Christian claim that the Jews falsified the Biblical text in order to hide the passages that supposedly prophesied about Jesus.

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Re: נערָ = παρθένον ?

Post by jaihare » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:02 am

Prometheus wrote:So it appears that GTM is using this discussion as an opportunity to rehash the old, discredited, extreme Christian claim that the Jews falsified the Biblical text in order to hide the passages that supposedly prophesied about Jesus.
Good thing this isn't a theology forum, or we might end up with an argument on our hands. ;)

While GTM might argue about the vocalic structure of the MT, it is certain that the consonantal structure at least of the text of the Torah was not at any point shifted at this time. The consonants read נער, and there's no other way to understand the word in this verse. It very clearly means naʕará, no matter if GTM believes the Massoretes shifted vowels around to avoid admitting the obvious truth about his religious leader. I don't see how any argument can move these things around.

Jason

P.S. I do have a theologically-inclined discussion forum if anyone would like to take this there.

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