Lingva Latina

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Джек
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Lingva Latina

Post by Джек » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:33 pm

Salvete :)

As you will no doubt have worked out, I have just joined. I have been learning languages for as long as I can remember; I love them. I have ordered a copy of Lingva Latina, Familia Romana, as I have heard that this is a very good book to learn from to start with. I have heard however, that it is written entirely in Latin. To me, this sounds rather daunting, as I have learned languages through language classes before now, in which we have always had the option to slip into English if we so desired. With Lingva Latina, however, it would seem that I do not have this option. Is there anyone who would be kind enough to explain how this course actually works? My knowledge of French will be a help with vocabulary, however I don't think my French is good enough to get me through a huge book such as this, not to mention that Latin will inevitably have words that are nothing like their French equivalents at all. How would you recognise words you don't know? Presumably for this, a dictionary would be necessary? Or is it so clever as to explain it through context?

Gr?tias mulas

Jack
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Post by loqu » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:15 am

My experience (I am learning on lesson XXVIII): the book is entirely in Latin and you have to get the meaning of new words entirely on the context. There are also some side notes which explain some words, but with Latin explanations.

In general I haven't had much trouble with it. I understand things pretty well, apart from some words I don't ever seem to remember and learn, but it's OK. That said, my native language is Spanish so it has helped me with some words, but it doesn't help at all with other ones (I have found myself recurring to my German to understand a couple words).

I wish you luck and a very pleasurable experience with LL :wink:

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Post by Джек » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:01 am

When it arrives, I am sure I will very much enjoy it. You don't think it's neccessary to buy a dictionary, then?


Gratias tibi ago
Jack
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Post by loqu » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:18 am

It's always a good resource, but I'm not using it -- I only use it when trying to write something myself, for the exercises and all that.

For reading, I try to rely on context and it's not going too bad.

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Post by Джек » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:25 am

Right. I'm going to see how it goes to start with without one; being at university, I'm having to live on a tight budget. I will end up trying to write my own Latin, however that day is a long way off and Lingva Latina will be enough for now. How does the book explain cases endings and such? Is it clear from the context what the words mean, or do they explain it like any other textbook would do?

Jack
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Post by loqu » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:40 am

Джек wrote:Right. I'm going to see how it goes to start with without one; being at university, I'm having to live on a tight budget. I will end up trying to write my own Latin, however that day is a long way off and Lingva Latina will be enough for now. How does the book explain cases endings and such? Is it clear from the context what the words mean, or do they explain it like any other textbook would do?

Jack
No it's not like any other textbook. It begins with two cases (nominative and ablative if I remember well) in the first lesson, and then in each lesson a new one is introduced. Sentences using those cases are so numerous that you get easily the meaning of the case. After all of them have been introduced, the remaining declensions not studied yet (since you get to know the declensions along with the cases) are given in tables like traditionally, but only after that.

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Post by Джек » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:59 am

That sounds like a wonderful way to learn it. I'm looking forward to studying it. I know that it says that after reading the book cover to cover, the reader has a vocabulary of... 1600 words, I think it was... but what does that number actually mean in real terms? I intend to speak Latin; dead language or not, half the joy of learning a language is being able to speak it. Like many of us on here, I would like to see Latin reborn into the modern world. A language such as Latin, with so much history behind it, should never die out. On here and probably in other places, it has been referred to as the undead language. I agree, however there is a difference between an undead language and a living one. I want Latin to make that transition back into the living again. Am I mad, or do others share this point of view? What do you think, Ioqu?

Thanks for your help and opinions.

Jack
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Post by loqu » Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:17 am

Oh I think we share the point of view :) in fact I began to study Latin not so much to understand, but rather to produce, written or spoken. That's why I chose LL (I find it a very natural way to learn, and I have read the students of the schools where it's used are able to build senseful texts), even though in some other forums they adviced me to go for traditional methods instead.

I don't know how big the vocabulary of a student of Lingua Latina is in the end, but the book is rather rich in vocabulary and has got lists at the end of each lesson in order to study them independently if you want to focus on them (which I know I will have to do).

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Post by Джек » Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:38 am

That sounds brilliant. I am studying Latin for a number of reasons. Firstly, I love language; I have been studying modern foreign languages (German, French and Russian) for as long as I can remember. I felt it was time for a change; I wanted to learn one of the older languages.

Secondly, I have a keen interest in Roman history, however I feel that although it is interesting, reading it in translation is not half as rewarding as reading the actual original texts in Latin.

Thirdly, there are so many words in English, German and French that have been borrowed from Latin that I felt I just have to learn Latin.

If you care for corrections of your English:

The phrase "senseful texts" is not possible in English - "senseful" is not a word in this context. Better would be "texts that make sense", or "coherent texts", although this second one sounds a little strange out of context.

The word "advice" is a noun in English. The verb, which is what you wanted, is "advised".

If you are offended by my correcting your English, tell me. If so, I apologise.

Jack
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Post by calvinist » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:33 am

Джек wrote:If you are offended by my correcting your English, tell me. If so, I apologise.

Jack
"Apologize" is how we rebel yanks spell it. :lol:

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Post by Kasper » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:54 am

calvinist wrote:
Джек wrote:If you are offended by my correcting your English, tell me. If so, I apologise.

Jack
"Apologize" is how we rebel yanks spell it. :lol:
yes, but one should not perpetuate errors.

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Post by loqu » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:15 am

I'm not offended at all by the fact that you correct my English; on the contrary, I'm thankful. It's been so long since I stopped studying it that it has gone broken, but I hope I'm still understandable :)

When I finally learn Latin properly I won't need English anymore. :lol:

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Post by Джек » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:27 am

That sounds good. I don't like English, personally. I would have no problem with not knowing any English at all... I love other languages; for example, I would love to live in Germany one day, as German is one of my passions. I long for the day when I can speak and write Latin like the others in this forum. Lingva Latina will be a big step toward that goal, however I sense that you can't achieve fluency through one book, no matter how comprehensive it may claim to be. Am I right? What further steps would users of Lingva Latina have to take afterward, in order to achieve fluency?

Jack
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Post by Bretonus » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:02 am

You can spend a lot of time on the Lingua Latina series. I finished Pars I: Familia Romana months ago, now I'm on Pars II: Roma Aeterna. For Roma Aeterna that little green instruction book you can buy offers a lot of help for its size and price. But since I get tired of Livy some nights I read a page or two from Caesar's De Bello Gallico (annotated, part of the LL series). When I finish Pars II I will read Sermones Romani.

Metrodorus' podcast is a great auxiliary. I used it rather heavily in my first few months when I first became interested in Latin, and through it I managed to memorize the paradigms for the declension of nouns. I also don't think I could have so quickly learned the dative construction with the verb sum without it.

Also, influenced by a Lucus Eques post, I looked up some reviews and I am sure I will own Traupman's Conversational Latin for Oral Proficiency by early 2009.

I also bought Wheelock's Latin a few weeks ago (and have completed its 40 lessons as of Monday), since I wanted to test myself with a more traditional grammar, partly because of how much I was enjoying my Greek text. I managed to fill two pages of Microsoft Word worth of notes of things I did not know, or just felt I could be stronger in, including vocabulary. I bought it hoping to learn a little more, but it was really a confidence booster to see that from almost 300 pages worth of lessons all I needed was a couple pages worth of notes.

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Post by Джек » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:36 pm

Wow, that is quite an achievement, well done! Well, there's probably no point in me getting carried away with the other volumes of Lingua Latina just yet; the first weighty tome still hasn't arrived yet. I've got to work memorising the noun declination tables; they're a little more extensive than those of German and indeed those of Russian. Technically, though, it's the article that declines in German, not the noun.

Are there any tips that anyone can give me on memorising these never-ending declinations? I think I have mastered when to use each case, however now there's the big task ahead of memorising all the many declinations and no doubt thousands of exceptions to the rules!

Jack
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Post by loqu » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:25 pm

Джек wrote:Wow, that is quite an achievement, well done! Well, there's probably no point in me getting carried away with the other volumes of Lingua Latina just yet; the first weighty tome still hasn't arrived yet. I've got to work memorising the noun declination tables; they're a little more extensive than those of German and indeed those of Russian. Technically, though, it's the article that declines in German, not the noun.

Are there any tips that anyone can give me on memorising these never-ending declinations? I think I have mastered when to use each case, however now there's the big task ahead of memorising all the many declinations and no doubt thousands of exceptions to the rules!

Jack
Well, you are aware that some declension still exists in German nouns, I guess (weak nouns, or genitive case), and in adjectives.

I think the tips on memorising declensions are a personal thing, I mean, some tips may be useful to one person and seem stupid for the next one. There are some thumb rules, though right now I can't remember any of them. Well, accusative plural ends in -s except for neutra.

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Post by Джек » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:45 pm

Yes, I'm aware of what little German noun declination there is left; I didn't see the point in going into it, as we are discussing something far more important than German :lol:
I think the tips on memorising declensions are a personal thing
I agree with that to a certain extent. I shall take a closer look for useful patterns soon. I'm sure there must be some patterns; there are even patterns in something as complicated as Russian, so I'm sure Latin will also have some. In the meantime, if you think of any further useful tips, I would love to hear them

Jack
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Post by darodalaf » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:02 pm

Джек wrote:Yes, I'm aware of what little German noun declination there is left; I didn't see the point in going into it, as we are discussing something far more important than German :lol:
To paraphrase an old quote: To study the Classics, Greek and Latin are desirable, but German is essential.

:-)

daro

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Post by Джек » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:15 pm

Yes, I agree, but in comparison to Latin, I think that German does not quite add the same educational value. I personally find Latin to be more of a challenge, so, at least to me, Latin is more essential. All are welcome to disagree, however. :)
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Post by Lucus Eques » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:54 pm

Jack!!! I'm so glad you've arrived! Salve! You know me as Лука at the MasterRussian.com forum (which I highly recommend to Russian learners)!

You and I, Jack, share the same philosophy with regard to Latin. I am pleased that many of us feel the movement of Latin towards international language again (alongside of the others, of course, not necessarily to replace them ;) ).

You asked about memorizing declensions (or declinations as I prefer to say also in English); I did this, the DOWLING METHOD:

http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~wcd/Latin.htm

I found it appealed strongly to my left brain, and LLPSI to the right. It's worth a try! I'm attempting the same right now with Russian. I hope the book you recommended lives up to its reputation! for I ordered it on your recommendation. :) Ещё раз ?па?ибо! I'll get back to that PM on MR.net later.


As for "apologise," keep in mind that in Greek the verb is ἀπολογίζειν, or the like — Greek zeta is English 'z', and in Latin is apologiz?re so orthographically "apologize," "memorize," &c. better convey the classical spelling.

And as for English itself — you say you don't like it very much. I didn't either at one time. But then I immersed myself in Latin and Greek, and found that English is really a vessel for these bastions of litterature, culture, art, science, you name it. Perhaps Latin will for you, as it did for me, allow me to appreciate much more fully my native tongue.

Молодец, друг! Мне очень нравит?? увидить теб? зде?ь. Laetor tē vidēns.
L. Amadeus Ranierius

SCORPIO·MARTIANVS

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Post by Джек » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:25 pm

Здрав?твуй, Лука

Which book are you talking about? I recommended two. Wade's is far more comprehensive than Brown's, however I think you will find both useful. Let me know what you think of them. Perhaps when you are confident enough, you should write to me entirely in Russian. That would be an experience for you, I think. I shall do the same with Latin, however I fear it will take me a little longer to pick up Latin, as I have other academic commitments, not least my Russian studies, which are going very well, I might add. Is it unusual to post sentences or paragraphs to correct on here? I mean, Latin is supposedly a language that should just be read. Or rather, that is how it is portrayed in schools over here, and in America, it seems. I don't agree with this, as you know. For example, if I wrote a post asking for sentences to be corrected concerning the case endings, would that be unusual? My vocabulary is not very extensive at the moment, however it will grow rapidly once I acquire Lingua Latina, which should be arriving soon. How is your Russian coming along? It seems to be getting along great! Поздравл?ю, еще раз! Я жду ? нетерпением говорить ? тобой по-ру??ки! Ты пишешь очень хорошо.

Jack
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Post by MarcusE » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:04 pm

If you enjoy brute force memorization then I suppose you might enjoy the Dowling method Lucus refers to. I'm on chapter 30 of LL pars 1 and am thoroughly enjoy it. Most of my "latin time" is in bed, on the john and on my elliptical trainer and I have managed to make good progress. So far I have avoided all formal grammar work and content myself with just perusing grammar explanations when I feel the need or desire and it's working fine

I suggest postponing the hard core memorization until you get into LL a ways. I can tell already that if I were to sit down and really try to hammer out and nail down the declension and conjugation tables now after 30 chapters of LL it would be pretty easy since I have already been exposed to all the forms in their genuine linguistic context over and over again. Doing so at the beginning a la Dowling, ugh!

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Post by thesaurus » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:25 am

Lucus Eques wrote: And as for English itself — you say you don't like it very much. I didn't either at one time. But then I immersed myself in Latin and Greek, and found that English is really a vessel for these bastions of litterature, culture, art, science, you name it. Perhaps Latin will for you, as it did for me, allow me to appreciate much more fully my native tongue.
I'd hope that we can appreciate English as more than the empty vessel or trash bin of classical languages (not sure this was your argument, and no diss on Latin and Greek themselves). I think you'll find that it's easier to romanticize languages one doesn't speak natively... the same goes for the rest of the situations we're born into. I'm sure English would look pretty appealing to many a Roman or Greek.

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Post by calvinist » Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:43 pm

thesaurus wrote:
Lucus Eques wrote: And as for English itself — you say you don't like it very much. I didn't either at one time. But then I immersed myself in Latin and Greek, and found that English is really a vessel for these bastions of litterature, culture, art, science, you name it. Perhaps Latin will for you, as it did for me, allow me to appreciate much more fully my native tongue.
I'd hope that we can appreciate English as more than the empty vessel or trash bin of classical languages (not sure this was your argument, and no diss on Latin and Greek themselves). I think you'll find that it's easier to romanticize languages one doesn't speak natively... the same goes for the rest of the situations we're born into. I'm sure English would look pretty appealing to many a Roman or Greek.
You brought up a good point, we always find foreign ideas, languages, customs, so much more exciting than our own... that's why the west in the 21st century hates itself and it's history! :lol: I would add also that English is a different case as far as languages go, because it did pretty much become an "empty vessel" after the Norman conquest of England and so it had to have a Romance lexical stock poured into it to breathe life back into it.

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