Is there just one god for our world??!!

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calvinist
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Post by calvinist » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:31 pm

Amadeus wrote:
Kasper wrote:Personally, I still don't know whether any of you actually exist, or are mere hallucations of mind.
This whole thread has been just one big monologue, because, of course, none of you exist. It's just me talking to myself. :lol:
you mean me of course...

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Post by Bert » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:06 pm

Amadeus wrote:
Kasper wrote:Personally, I still don't know whether any of you actually exist, or are mere hallucations of mind.
This whole thread has been just one big monologue, because, of course, none of you exist. It's just me talking to myself. :lol:
That makes me feel better. Now I don't have to think about whether I am or not....Hey....What am I saying! I was thinking therefore I am!

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Post by Lex » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:39 am

Bert wrote:
Amadeus wrote:
Kasper wrote:Personally, I still don't know whether any of you actually exist, or are mere hallucations of mind.
This whole thread has been just one big monologue, because, of course, none of you exist. It's just me talking to myself. :lol:
That makes me feel better. Now I don't have to think about whether I am or not....Hey....What am I saying! I was thinking therefore I am!
I certainly hope that this ultra-sceptical idealist philosophy isn't true, because if it is, I am really crazy to have dreamed up all of you characters! :lol:

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Post by Lex » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:44 am

Kasper wrote:(how did people know anything prior to the internet?)
Encyclopedias, libraries... reading. :wink:

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Post by Kasper » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:33 pm

Lex wrote: I certainly hope that this ultra-sceptical idealist philosophy isn't true, because if it is, I am really crazy to have dreamed up all of you characters! :lol:
You don't know that. The one true god might be feeding you these thoughts and dreams. All you can do is doubt.

The interesting thing is that Descartes called such a god, if there were one, a very evil god. I'm not sure why he would consider illusions evil, if illusions are all there is.

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Post by Lex » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:02 am

Kasper wrote:
Lex wrote: I certainly hope that this ultra-sceptical idealist philosophy isn't true, because if it is, I am really crazy to have dreamed up all of you characters! :lol:
You don't know that. The one true god might be feeding you these thoughts and dreams.
If you use the epistemological standard of extreme scepticism with regards to the existence of other people, then to be logically consistent, you should also do so with respect to God. Which means that you shouldn't assume that God exists either, unless you assume that you are God.
Kasper wrote: All you can do is doubt.
That's not true. I can also take things that I cannot prove true for granted. Which, strangely enough, is what I in fact do. I could be wrong, but hey, it gets me through the day.
Kasper wrote: The interesting thing is that Descartes called such a god, if there were one, a very evil god. I'm not sure why he would consider illusions evil, if illusions are all there is.
Because that would make God the father of lies?

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Post by Kasper » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:16 am

Lex wrote:
Kasper wrote:
Lex wrote: I certainly hope that this ultra-sceptical idealist philosophy isn't true, because if it is, I am really crazy to have dreamed up all of you characters! :lol:
You don't know that. The one true god might be feeding you these thoughts and dreams.
If you use the epistemological standard of extreme scepticism with regards to the existence of other people, then to be logically consistent, you should also do so with respect to God. Which means that you shouldn't assume that God exists either, unless you assume that you are God.
I didn't assume it. I merely denied knowledge either way.
Lex wrote:
Kasper wrote: All you can do is doubt.
That's not true. I can also take things that I cannot prove true for granted. Which, strangely enough, is what I in fact do. I could be wrong, but hey, it gets me through the day.
Agreed.

Lex wrote:
Kasper wrote: The interesting thing is that Descartes called such a god, if there were one, a very evil god. I'm not sure why he would consider illusions evil, if illusions are all there is.
Because that would make God the father of lies?
I'm not sure of that. If there is nothing else but illusion, how are illusions not true?

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Post by Lex » Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:51 pm

Kasper wrote:If there is nothing else but illusion, how are illusions not true?
Hmmm.... good point.

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Post by IreneY » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:00 pm

I am tempted to go with my favourite line here ("Define X", "x" being "illusion" here) but I will try not to :D

If everything is an illusion then nothing is true not vice versa. Illusions are not true by definition.

Sorry to barge like this in a conversation I don't have anything to contribute otherwise (as an atheist the number of deities is, let's say a moot point :) ).

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Post by Lex » Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:33 am

IreneY wrote: If everything is an illusion then nothing is true not vice versa. Illusions are not true by definition.

Sorry to barge like this in a conversation I don't have anything to contribute otherwise (as an atheist the number of deities is, let's say a moot point :) ).
No apology needed. And actually, I am an atheist also. But I think we have veered from a question about God, to another question of metaphysics. In particular, metaphysical idealism.
Kasper wrote: If there is nothing else but illusion, how are illusions not true?
This question isn't as silly as it first sounds, IMHO.

Let's say we are all in an "illusionary" world like in The Matrix, but there is no "red pill" to take us to a "real world" behind the Matrix. Then the Matrix is the only reality, and does not contradict anything else. Then how can it be a lie?

And, how can we know that there is a "real world" behind the sensory world that we experience everyday? How can we know that we are not in such a Matrix? What if we are pure spirit, with only thought and a consensual hallucination we call "reality"?

Yeah, yeah, I don't believe any of that either. But, I can't prove that it isn't true. I can say, however, that if you are that sceptical about substance or reality, then you should also be as sceptical about others (including God) and not accept their existence either. That would result in solipsism, with you being the only individual in existence (and maybe you are God). Either you go with the logic and accept solipsism, or you consider that it has concluded a reductio ad absurdum argument that shows that, with respect to such extreme scepticism, "that way madness lies".

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