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Lucus Eques
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Post by Lucus Eques » Sun May 18, 2008 8:56 pm

ThomasGR wrote:Sometimes, I have the same impression as Neos.
indigenous Look up indigenous at Dictionary.com

1646, from L.L. indigenus "born in a country, native," from L. indigena "a native," lit. "in-born person," from Old L. indu "in, within" (earlier endo) + gen-, root of gignere (perf. genui) "beget," from PIE *gen- "produce."
for me indigenous comes clearly from Greek endogenes. In this etymology, there is only "in" and "indu" mentioned. Greeks used this compound word earlier than Latins, so, I think, Greeks should get all the fame. I do not understand this "earlier endo", and after all these attempts to credit Latin more than it's worth, it jumps suddenly to PIE.
This train of thought is confounding. Greek and Latin merely share common roots. My sister and I have Italian noses because we share a common heritage — not because my sister is my mother!
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Lucus Eques
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Post by Lucus Eques » Sun May 18, 2008 9:00 pm

ThomasGR wrote:Because when the first English wrote endo,
Huh?
they might have known the Greek endogenes and where somewhat lazy to look up grammar rules and form indigenus.
Why on Earth would Greek — which has no decendents but Modern Greek (with small exception perhaps) — be better known as a reference before Latin, the European language for thousands of years known at one time universally, and the mother tongue of several European languages? The logic here is truly sophistic.
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Post by annis » Sun May 18, 2008 9:09 pm

ThomasGR wrote:Because when the first English wrote endo, they might have known the Greek endogenes and where somewhat lazy to look up grammar rules and form indigenus.
:shock: [choking sound here] You're just pulling fantasies out of the air!

The OED has 1646 as the first attested use of the word in English. Do you suppose the first person to use it in English had such poor command of Latin he couldn't remember a word used in both classical and medieval Latin and instead pulled out a mangled pronunciation of a Greek word that has a total of three citations in LSJ?
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Lucus Eques
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Post by Lucus Eques » Sun May 18, 2008 9:40 pm

annis wrote:
ThomasGR wrote:Because when the first English wrote endo, they might have known the Greek endogenes and where somewhat lazy to look up grammar rules and form indigenus.
:shock: [choking sound here] You're just pulling fantasies out of the air!

The OED has 1646 as the first attested use of the word in English. Do you suppose the first person to use it in English had such poor command of Latin he couldn't remember a word used in both classical and medieval Latin and instead pulled out a mangled pronunciation of a Greek word that has a total of three citations in LSJ?
*laughs with Will, pats him on the back* I feel your pain, man. Hand me that spoon when you're done!
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IreneY
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Post by IreneY » Sun May 18, 2008 10:04 pm

Hand me one too.

Question: Isn't Οικονόμου a rather old ( 1780 - 1857) non-expert scholar and isn't this book mostly about what he considers the right way to pronounce Greek?

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Post by ThomasGR » Mon May 19, 2008 6:01 am

That anyone at all has to explain that Latin isn't a child of Greek but a cousin
It escapes your attention that we all know that too well. My dumb problem is, at least I have this impression quite often, that dictionaries are not always precisely correct, have the tendency to stop at medieval French or Latin, underestimating the Greek contribution to form abstract words so easily, or jump directly to PIE. Latin is not a child of Greek. That's true, but when we deal with compound words, it should be mentioned who was the first to make this composition. For me, indigenus looks like a translation of endogenes. On the other hand, I expect too much from an online dictionary. To compressed all the knowledge in two lines.

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Post by Lucus Eques » Mon May 19, 2008 11:19 am

I understand your feelings, Thoma. Nevertheless, "indigenous" is not a translation of "endogenes" any more than ego is a translation of á¼￾γώ.
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Post by annis » Mon May 19, 2008 9:06 pm


William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by Bert » Tue May 20, 2008 12:39 am

Lucus Eques wrote:I love that IE family tree! I'm going to print that out and put it on my wall.
I recall seeing a language family tree once and seem to recall that Greek was much more closely related to Russian than this tree seems to indicate.
This could be due to the fact that it was not restricted to PIE so to make it overseeable a lot of the small branches and twigs may have been left off. The way I recall, Greek and Russian were lone sisters. This family tree I found in a (borrowed) book put out by a languages museum.

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Post by Bert » Tue May 20, 2008 12:56 am

annis wrote: That anyone at all has to explain that Latin isn't a child of Greek but a cousin — a distant one at that — leaves me with the same urge to dig out my brains with a dull spoon. It'd stop the burning sensation.
If it will ease the burning sensation I am willing to tell you that your pain has not been in vain for now I know a bit about the relationship. (Why it has to be so painful to explain this I do not know.)

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