official moral

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klewlis
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Re:official moral

Post by klewlis » Sat Sep 20, 2003 4:31 pm

again, it's a matter of evolutionary status. We *are* capable of seeing the big picture... but even when we are not, our instincts are to protect the race. We *are* changing for the better in regards to environment and such, or at least trying to. The hindrance is big corporations and their so-called "globalization", who act in the interests of a few people rather than the betterment of race. But that is another story ;)

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Emma_85
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Re:official moral

Post by Emma_85 » Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:08 pm

No, that's not true, it's not just big cooporations. If we really cared we wouldn't use the car, but mass transit, we would by in the expensive health food shops and fair trade shops, and wouldn't buy shoes and jeans that are made in places like Bangladesh and so on....
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Re:official moral

Post by klewlis » Sat Sep 20, 2003 6:45 pm

[quote author=Emma_85 link=board=13;threadid=645;start=15#6344 date=1064077710]<br />No, that's not true, it's not just big cooporations. If we really cared we wouldn't use the car, but mass transit, we would by in the expensive health food shops and fair trade shops, and wouldn't buy shoes and jeans that are made in places like Bangladesh and so on....<br />[/quote]<br /><br />But there are many of us who *do* those things that you mention. I do my best to buy clothing that I know is made fairly (such as New Balance shoes and clothing made in Canada). I eat healthy food and shop at the local farmer's market for fresh food. I support local and canadian businesses whenever possible and avoid abusive giant stores like walmart. When I finally get enough money to buy a new car, I plan to buy a hybrid that uses part electricity and therefore less gas (or a diesel that can be converted to bio-diesel...hmm.... ). <br /><br />And I know plenty of other people who feel and do the same.

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Re:official moral

Post by annis » Sat Sep 20, 2003 7:18 pm

There are several subtly different threads going through this conversation right now, and I'd like to touch on them lightly.<br /><br />First, evolution works at the level of the individual. There are no "instincts to protect the race." Most recent books on evolution will discuss this misconception. I tried to find a quick, short web reference but was unable.<br /><br />Next, oikeosis is the term the Stoics used to describe the development of ethics starting from oneself, to the family, the city, the state and finally to the world. In Patriotism and Cosmopolitanism Martha Nussbaum discusses this idea in depth, with an aim to show that patriotism subverts ethics.<br /><br />Finally, on the subject of environmental awareness, we have a giant problem with this in the United States, and since the US is the largest economy in the world this problem is spread across the planet. The problem is that something like 40% of U.S. citizens identify as evangelical Christian of some sort. Many, many of them - and this includes the people they vote into office - feel that even if the End isn't imminent, the countdown has certainly begun. Thus, there's no reason to worry about the environment because the problem will cease to exist within this or the next generation.<br />
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Re:official moral

Post by Emma_85 » Sat Sep 20, 2003 8:29 pm

I'm not as optimistic as you are...<br />Things are getting worse, and even if they do get better in the US, there'd India and China to think of... <br /><br />klewlis, eventhough you may know many people who do care, I do to, when you think of it in terms of the gerneral public, you'll find hardly anyone cares. Most people don't care you know, or if they do, then in a strang sort of way. They say they do, but think they can't do anything against all that anyway and just don't think on it anymore. <br /><br />As to the evolution of altruism there are several different theories at the moment. I wouldn't rule out anyone, just because it's not the favoured one right now. Just think about the problems evolutionary biologists are having working out mortality...
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Re:official moral

Post by benissimus » Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:32 pm

Well, I think that the mere fact that there are examples of people who go out of their way to try to lessen an impending problem disproves your theory that human beings are incapable of seeing "the big picture".
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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Re:official moral

Post by klewlis » Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:23 am

[quote author=benissimus link=board=13;threadid=645;start=15#6362 date=1064097132]<br />Well, I think that the mere fact that there are examples of people who go out of their way to try to lessen an impending problem disproves your theory that human beings are incapable of seeing "the big picture".<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I agree. The fact that we can even ask this question says that we are able to see past ourselves to the larger context of our actions. The masses may not be catching on yet, but that is because we are generally blinded by other motives. If we could disjoin ourselves from our techno-frenzy long enough to look around at its effects, we would see things much differently!

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Hamilton
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Re:official moral

Post by Hamilton » Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:47 am

Martha Nussbaum...Patriotism subverts Ethics
<br /><br />This is twaddle. Given that the Founding Fathers were all classically trained, I find the statement that Patriotism subverts Ethics just more Trojan Horse leftism, masquerading as illumination.
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Re:official moral

Post by annis » Sun Sep 21, 2003 1:08 am

Hamilton wrote:<br />
Martha Nussbaum...Patriotism subverts Ethics
<br /><br />This is twaddle.<br />
<br /><br />Would you perhaps care to justify that with a solid argument?<br /><br />
Given that the Founding Fathers were all classically trained, I find the statement that Patriotism subverts Ethics just more Trojan Horse leftism, masquerading as illumination.<br />
<br /><br />Unless I missed their apotheosis, I fail to see how the education of the Founding Fathers is relevant to the ethical status of patriotism.<br />
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Re:official moral

Post by Hamilton » Sun Sep 21, 2003 2:27 pm

Certainly! But first I have to test the waters to see if there is anyone interested in crossing swords. Rhetorically speaking of course.<br /><br />And there is!<br /><br />So, to begin, with definitions as Socrates would insist:<br /><br />(1) Patriotism<br />(2) Ethics.<br /><br />OED satisfactory?
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