Indo-European as She was Spake
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Indo-European as She was Spake
Recently sighted on a blog: Dnghu, an attempt to reconstruct Indo-European as the most suitable common language for the EU. Languagehat described it as "touchingly absurd," which captures my feelings about it perfectly.
You may find a link to the massive grammar here.
My own feeling is that Old Occitan is in line for a revival project. At least we have actual examples of that language in use.
You may find a link to the massive grammar here.
My own feeling is that Old Occitan is in line for a revival project. At least we have actual examples of that language in use.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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tell me what this be about. how the hell a language is "reconstructed" with so much confidence as to be said "The Proto-Indo-Europeans are the speakers of the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European language...They are a group of people whose existence from around 4000 BCE is inferred from their language, Proto-Indo-European."Does no one care about the process behind PIE?
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I'm really getting a kick out of this. What exactly is "Old Greek"?
And when was the Latin for EU language project deemed a failure? Didn't it just start?
And when was the Latin for EU language project deemed a failure? Didn't it just start?
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Nostratic or Nothing for the EU!Arvid wrote:How do the Finns, Estonians, Lapps, Hungarians, and Basques feel about this?
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Right--Proto-World or nothing!
Seriously, though, Schleicher wrote us a little fable in Proto-Indo-European 150 years ago. I thought the consensus was that that was a foolhardy exercise. The more we know, the less we think we know....
P. S. Actually, if Basque IS related to the caucasian languages (the only justification I've ever seen is the common name "Iberian") then it would be included in the Nostratic "phylum."
Seriously, though, Schleicher wrote us a little fable in Proto-Indo-European 150 years ago. I thought the consensus was that that was a foolhardy exercise. The more we know, the less we think we know....
P. S. Actually, if Basque IS related to the caucasian languages (the only justification I've ever seen is the common name "Iberian") then it would be included in the Nostratic "phylum."
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Nor are elves related to fairies.Chris Weimer wrote:As far as I know, Basque isn't included in Nostratic.
Basque isn't an EU official language, so they're up a creek regardless.
Last edited by annis on Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
- Lucus Eques
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Okay — so after a very careful but quick reading of the entire 300-page Modern Indo-European Grammar, I have decided that the project is absolutely ridiculous.
A very interesting and noteworthy project with fascinating results, but ultimately beyond logic. Latin is an infinitely better choice — at least Latinly we have two and a half thousand years of documented litterature, as opposed to the imagined — excuse me, reconstructed stories of the Indo-Europeans, or Sindhueuropaias†— whoever the hades they were.
_____
†That's another thing; the morphology doesn't seem to account for any assimilation. Very odd... Where's George Bernard Shaw to knock some sense into 'em when you need 'im.
A very interesting and noteworthy project with fascinating results, but ultimately beyond logic. Latin is an infinitely better choice — at least Latinly we have two and a half thousand years of documented litterature, as opposed to the imagined — excuse me, reconstructed stories of the Indo-Europeans, or Sindhueuropaias†— whoever the hades they were.
_____
†That's another thing; the morphology doesn't seem to account for any assimilation. Very odd... Where's George Bernard Shaw to knock some sense into 'em when you need 'im.
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Old Greek = Ancient Greek? And which period are they talking about when they say "[...] as it happened with Latin (Europe), Old Greek (Greece) [...]". Surely they are not confusing Puristic Greek (Katharevousa) with ancient Greek?
Anyway, Latin may work better for you but I opt for Greek of whichever period you choose * if we are going to talk about ideas that will probably never work in practice.
* provided they were actually spoken at one period or another so Homer is out.
Anyway, Latin may work better for you but I opt for Greek of whichever period you choose * if we are going to talk about ideas that will probably never work in practice.
* provided they were actually spoken at one period or another so Homer is out.
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Since Cantor we are permitted to distinguish different sizes of infinities. Dnghu and Latin are frankly in the same cardinality of infinities, both in terms of practicality and likelihood.Lucus Eques wrote:Latin is an infinitely better choice —
What is this project to use Latin in the EU? I tried the expected searches, and got mostly news about the Finnish presidency of the EU.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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It was only that in the major arenas, Will — that Finland made Latin one of the languages of the EU under its presidency, a precedent to a single EU language, it is hoped, more ardently by some than others.
More:
http://www.atrium-media.com/rogueclassi ... 04167.html
More:
http://www.atrium-media.com/rogueclassi ... 04167.html
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Well, there wasn't much interesting going on that way at the time.mingshey wrote:Latin's lucky. Alexander the Great took the wrong direction for his expedition.
If we're going to dabble in impossibilities... I can't imagine the Eastern European countries with long Orthodox histories being happy to adopt the language of the Catholic Church. So the EU can get two working languages — Latin for the West, Classical Greek for the East. Turkey, the former Sultinate of Rum (i.e., Rome) can use Latin if they ever stop shooting themselves in the foot on EU membership.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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That would be a dream come true!annis wrote:So the EU can get two working languages — Latin for the West, Classical Greek for the East.
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!
Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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OK, well, I downloaded their Grammar and have been taking a look at it. It's an interesting read, regardless of what you may think of the reasonableness of the project. I must say, since Esperanto has been accused of being "too complicated" for retaining an accusative marker (always "-n",) I'm skeptical of the prospects of a European interlanguage with 8 cases, 3 numbers, and a congeries of weird and wonderful declensions, but this is the kind of insane proposal that it's hard not to like!
The introductory matter is disappointing in a way. I thought Marija Gimbutas' Kurgan theory of Indo-European origins was surely dead by now, but it's given pride of place (first mention, anyway) while Colin Renfrew's theory that Indo-European spread out of a homeland in eastern Anatolia, bringing agriculture with it, much more slowly and much earlier than previously suspected, is given very short shrift. I think it's time to leave those ax-wielding barbarians so beloved of 19th century scholars behind.
The section on phonology was also something of a surprise. I haven't read anything in this area for a while, but I was hoping that sanity might have returned in recent years. I mean, really: 3 (or is it 4, or is it 9?) "laryngeal" consonants that have all disappeared from all the daughter languages, and for none of which do we have any idea of their value? In reconstructing any other proto-language notions like this would be laughed to scorn. Whatever it was, Proto-Indo-European was a human language, and had to be spoken by humans!
Just my two cents, but thanks, Annis, for finding this and bringing it to our attention.
The introductory matter is disappointing in a way. I thought Marija Gimbutas' Kurgan theory of Indo-European origins was surely dead by now, but it's given pride of place (first mention, anyway) while Colin Renfrew's theory that Indo-European spread out of a homeland in eastern Anatolia, bringing agriculture with it, much more slowly and much earlier than previously suspected, is given very short shrift. I think it's time to leave those ax-wielding barbarians so beloved of 19th century scholars behind.
The section on phonology was also something of a surprise. I haven't read anything in this area for a while, but I was hoping that sanity might have returned in recent years. I mean, really: 3 (or is it 4, or is it 9?) "laryngeal" consonants that have all disappeared from all the daughter languages, and for none of which do we have any idea of their value? In reconstructing any other proto-language notions like this would be laughed to scorn. Whatever it was, Proto-Indo-European was a human language, and had to be spoken by humans!
Just my two cents, but thanks, Annis, for finding this and bringing it to our attention.