I think I am missing the Point
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I think I am missing the Point
I think I am missing the Point.
There is such a Thing as a Subjective Infinitive, "It is pleasing to walk."
There is such a Thing as an Objective Infinitive, "The Farmer taught the Slaves to work."
These are Sentence Types depending on how the Verb is used. In the first one 'Walk' is the Subject. It is the only Thing you could be addressing. In the second one there are two Verbs and the second Verb refers to an action performed on a different Object.
In the sentence, "Videre est Credere," there must be some contrast to draw against it and the Subjective and Objective Infinitives. If the first two are particular treatments of a Verb what is the treatment of the Verb here? In this Sentence the Word 'Credere' is the Predicate Nominative. What is the relation? 'Credere' does not sound like a Noun.
Thanks.
There is such a Thing as a Subjective Infinitive, "It is pleasing to walk."
There is such a Thing as an Objective Infinitive, "The Farmer taught the Slaves to work."
These are Sentence Types depending on how the Verb is used. In the first one 'Walk' is the Subject. It is the only Thing you could be addressing. In the second one there are two Verbs and the second Verb refers to an action performed on a different Object.
In the sentence, "Videre est Credere," there must be some contrast to draw against it and the Subjective and Objective Infinitives. If the first two are particular treatments of a Verb what is the treatment of the Verb here? In this Sentence the Word 'Credere' is the Predicate Nominative. What is the relation? 'Credere' does not sound like a Noun.
Thanks.
cuts like ice cream fast like a razor blade
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I think you are missing the point
An infinitive is a noun, a verbal noun. In the example sentences, you could easily switch the infinitives for 'normal' nouns. If the normal noun is a subject, the infinitive in that position is a subject. If the normal noun is an object, the infinitive in that position is an object. If the normal noun is a predicate nominative, the infinitive in that position is a predicate nominative.
A walk is pleasing - It is pleasing to walk.
The farmer taught the slaves a lesson - The Farmer taught the Slaves to work.
Seeing is believing - An infinitive is a noun.
Hope this helps.
Ingrid
An infinitive is a noun, a verbal noun. In the example sentences, you could easily switch the infinitives for 'normal' nouns. If the normal noun is a subject, the infinitive in that position is a subject. If the normal noun is an object, the infinitive in that position is an object. If the normal noun is a predicate nominative, the infinitive in that position is a predicate nominative.
A walk is pleasing - It is pleasing to walk.
The farmer taught the slaves a lesson - The Farmer taught the Slaves to work.
Seeing is believing - An infinitive is a noun.
Hope this helps.
Ingrid
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If 'Walk' is switched with 'Pleasing' and 'Work' is switched with 'Lesson'ingrid70 wrote: A walk is pleasing - It is pleasing to walk.
The farmer taught the slaves a lesson - The Farmer taught the Slaves to work.
Seeing is believing - An infinitive is a noun.
then what is the equivalent Noun to represent 'Believing'. I was told
that it is not 'Belief'. What is it's Noun equivalent?
Thanks.
cuts like ice cream fast like a razor blade
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Chris Weimer wrote:If an infinitive is a noun, by all means, how is it used in an indirect sentence?
Because it is a verbal noun. I.e. it is a noun, but in some situations, it has the force of a verb: takes adverbs instead of adiectives, takes the case of its verb. See Allen and Greenough, page 286, section 451.
Anyway, in all of blutoons sentences, the infinitive is used as a noun.
In my example sentence, I switched 'Seeing' with 'an infinitive' and 'believing' with 'a noun'.
Ingrid
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Round about
Maybe the Point here is that in the Sentence, "Seeing is believing," is that 'believing' stands for any Infinitive filling for any Predicate Nominative? It doesn't have to be 'Belief'.
Yes?
Thanks.
Yes?
Thanks.
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blutoonwithcarrotandnail: You are definately missing some major points.
You said: "These are Sentence Types depending on how the Verb is used. In the first one 'Walk' is the Subject. It is the only Thing you could be addressing. In the second one there are two Verbs and the second Verb refers to an action performed on a different Object."
Infinitives can be used as nouns, adjectives and adverbs. They can never be used as verbs. In the first sentence you wrote, "to walk" is not the subject. "It" is the subject. "To walk" is an adverb. You are right about the second sentence in the way that "to work" is the direct object.
Also, Chris Weimer said: "Just because some adjectives work like adverbs doesn't make them so."
How does an adjective work as an adverb?
I'll try to clear some stuff up about the sentence "Videre est Credere." "Videre" is a noun and it is also the subject. "Est" is obviosly the verb, and the only verb in sentence. "Credere" is noun and it functions as a predicate nominative, or a noun describing the subject.
You said: "These are Sentence Types depending on how the Verb is used. In the first one 'Walk' is the Subject. It is the only Thing you could be addressing. In the second one there are two Verbs and the second Verb refers to an action performed on a different Object."
Infinitives can be used as nouns, adjectives and adverbs. They can never be used as verbs. In the first sentence you wrote, "to walk" is not the subject. "It" is the subject. "To walk" is an adverb. You are right about the second sentence in the way that "to work" is the direct object.
Also, Chris Weimer said: "Just because some adjectives work like adverbs doesn't make them so."
How does an adjective work as an adverb?
I'll try to clear some stuff up about the sentence "Videre est Credere." "Videre" is a noun and it is also the subject. "Est" is obviosly the verb, and the only verb in sentence. "Credere" is noun and it functions as a predicate nominative, or a noun describing the subject.
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As we are all Classicists here, we are endowed with the license to pick grammatical nits. Unfortunately I think that sometimes (usually?) all we do is confuse people. Certainly that has been done with parts of speech (where of course Allen and Greenough are correct about noun uses of the infinitive).rindu wrote:2. "It seems to me that seeing is believing." Indirect discourse.
"Mihi videtur videre esse credere."
That's how it is used in indirect discourse.
Now to muddy the waters still further with a technical distinction:
In English, "It seems to me that seeing is believing" is an example of indirect discourse. In Latin, however, mihi videtur videre esse credere is not. videre is used "personally"; it is the subject of of videtur.
This will be seen more clearly from another example:
Anglice: "It seems to me that you are a good man" = Latine: mihi videris bonus esse vir. The construction te mihi videtur bonum esse virum is bad Latin and must be studiously avoided.
videre esse credere dicunt, on the other hand, is indirect statement. Compare te bonum esse virum dicunt.
So if you understood the foregoing, you should also understand whether videre esse credere dicitur is an example of indirect speech or not. If you don't, well, I have made a hash of things and left you more confused than when you began. Alas. (It is not indirect speech.)
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Didymus wrote:
Crap. You made me realize how far I have to go yet.
It's an easy idiomatic rendition in Spanish...'ver para creer = to see in order to believe'...not that it matters a lot on a Latin board.
Me parece que el diablo debiera llevarse a Uds. y su conocimiento abundante a su casita muy en el "sur" ....jijijiji.
Ok...that's just the green-eyed monster talking. You guys are the best. lol.
If you don't, well, I have made a hash of things and left you more confused than when you began. Alas.
Crap. You made me realize how far I have to go yet.
It's an easy idiomatic rendition in Spanish...'ver para creer = to see in order to believe'...not that it matters a lot on a Latin board.
Me parece que el diablo debiera llevarse a Uds. y su conocimiento abundante a su casita muy en el "sur" ....jijijiji.
Ok...that's just the green-eyed monster talking. You guys are the best. lol.
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Yes, EgoIoYoEu is right. In Spanish the phrase is "ver para creer" (to see in order to believe).EgoIoYoEu wrote:I've seen "ver para creer," never have I seen "el ver es creer", though they both work, to my understanding.
Eheu! Ya ni mis compañeros de clase.Donde estás, güey?
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!
Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Is "el ver es creer" even Spanish, or am I merely balbutiating nonsense? That is, (1) is it even grammatically correct and (2) would any native Spanish speaker ever utter it?Amadeus wrote:Yes, EgoIoYoEu is right. In Spanish the phrase is "ver para creer" (to see in order to believe).EgoIoYoEu wrote:I've seen "ver para creer," never have I seen "el ver es creer", though they both work, to my understanding.
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Actually, it seems technically right, though I've never heard it spoken. I think if you said that, you would be understood.
Amadeus: JAJAJAJ! Ya te dije que trabajo con puros mexicanos, primo. Ya conozco todo el "slang". Lo bueno y lo malo. Tengo la fortuna de servir a la comunidad hispana aquÃ, y me toca aprender la forma en que habla la clase baja. Me explico? Es que si te hubiera llamado sólo amigo, no habrÃa sido tan...fuerte, sino regular. Ya que te llamé eso, te llamó la atención, sà o no?
Amadeus: JAJAJAJ! Ya te dije que trabajo con puros mexicanos, primo. Ya conozco todo el "slang". Lo bueno y lo malo. Tengo la fortuna de servir a la comunidad hispana aquÃ, y me toca aprender la forma en que habla la clase baja. Me explico? Es que si te hubiera llamado sólo amigo, no habrÃa sido tan...fuerte, sino regular. Ya que te llamé eso, te llamó la atención, sà o no?