The Bible as a Source of Knowledge

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PeterD
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Re: The Bible as a Source of Knowledge

Post by PeterD » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:01 pm

edonnelly wrote:It reminds me of the old story of the man who dies and goes to heaven. He confronts God and says "How could You let all those terrible things happen?" God's response to him is "How could you?"
I am curious. When it comes to natural disasters, to whom shall we throw the blame?
Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

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Kopio
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Post by Kopio » Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:14 am



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edonnelly
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Re: The Bible as a Source of Knowledge

Post by edonnelly » Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:44 pm

PeterD wrote:I am curious. When it comes to natural disasters, to whom shall we throw the blame?
It appears the liberals blame George Bush -- don't you?
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library

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Andrus
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Post by Andrus » Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:05 pm



PeterD
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Re: The Bible as a Source of Knowledge

Post by PeterD » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:08 pm

edonnelly wrote:
PeterD wrote:I am curious. When it comes to natural disasters, to whom shall we throw the blame?
It appears the liberals blame George Bush -- don't you?
Hmmm, it never crossed my mind. But now that you mention it... :wink:
Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

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Kopio
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Post by Kopio » Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:15 am

Andrus wrote:1- God is creator of everything.
2- If it is so then God is my creator.
3- So I was what I was in the day I was born because God made me so.
4- I am now what I am because what I was when I was born and because the things I have lived so far.

On other hand God is not limited by time so:
5- He would know (even before creating the Universe) what I would be and what I would live through.
6- Then he must have known that with the way He made me and with what I would live that I would be unable to believe in Him.
7- If I will be punished for that then I’m punished by what He did of me.
I would say that I agree wholeheartedly with point 1 and 2. Point 3 and 4 is where things get fuzzy for me. You were not an atheist out of the womb. I wasn't a Christian out of the womb. I made choices to get there...you made choices to get there. God simply knew what choices we would make from the beginning. He still allowed us to make those choices.

Point 5 I agree with. Point 6 I agree with, except for the fact that I don't think you are unable to believe in Him, I believe you are unwilling to believe in Him (of course what do I know, I don't live in your head). Point 7 I can't agree with because God is not culpable for the choices you have made, even though He knew when He created you that you would make them. An aside here would also be....you still have a lot of time left (God willing) to roll this around in your head. I'm guessing that you have thought more about this topic recently that in a long time. The fact that your are still digging, seems to me that God is still working in your life, whether you acknowledge it or not. Wow....that sounded uncharacteristically evangelistic for me...I try not to get up on the pulpit when I post :oops:
Andrus wrote: The subject of the free will re appear in my mind last year when the Priest that baptized my daughter spoke, in a meeting for the preparation of the Baptism, about the free will of choose or not choose God and that He already knew what we would choose. That struck me as an absolute paradox and it has been around my brain from time to time (I don’t like paradoxes, or to tell the true I like to discover how to resolve them).
I must admit, this is a puzzling paradox. You spoke here of your daughter. So lemme see if I can give you a illustration.....
You are a proud parent, but you know that, just like yourself, there are some things that you cannot teach your daughter. Some things she has to learn for herself. Otherwise you would be severely overprotective, overbearing, and controlling. You cannot make her do everything you think she should do. So she thinks the woodstove is pretty neat and wants to play with it...yadda yadda yadda....you finally restrain yourself and let her touch the hot woodstove, she burns her hand and learns a lesson. You...the Creator of her, had complete and total foreknowledge that if she touched the stove she would be burnt and cry, nevertheless you allowed her to make the choice for herself, to touch it, and to learn.

I realize that, like all illustrations, this breaks down at some point, but the basic facts are the same:

You are her Creator/God is our Creator...
You knew what was best for your creation...
You could see that the choices of your creation would harm them...
You allowed your creation to choose for themselves even to their own detriment.

Does that make you a horrible parent? No. I had to touch the hot stove for myself, as well as stick my finger in the outlet (I still remember doing that at about 4 years old) to learn that what my parents said was really in my best intrest, and I had best listen to them.

For me this paradox is resolved. What part of it continues to bother you or not make sense to you? BTW, I always though it would be extremely bad form for an Athiest to allow their child to be baptized. Isn't that the case?

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Post by Kopio » Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:08 pm

Ok....I know that this is a long dead thread, but I have been considering these things lately again. I am doing a paper right now at school on Open Theism, which (in a very small nutshell) says that we truly do have a free will because God doesn't have exhaustive knowledge of the future, he only has exhaustive knowledge of the now. In other words...God can be surprised! Anyhow, I would love to interact with y'all (especially Andrus) on this in the near future.

I must say Andrus, your 6 lines of logic are what really spawned my desire to investigate this theology. If this theology is right, it really would go a long way toward resolving your (and our) understanding of free will. That being said, I'm not sure I agree with Open Theology, but honestly, I don't know nearly enough of it to openly critique it at this point.

I look forward to future interaction.

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Post by Kasper » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:47 am

Interesting Kopio - througout this thread you have been defending that trust/believing in God is a leap of faith, and now you want to start proving whether or not God has exhaustive knowledge of the future.

This may have nothing to do with your thesis, but do you assume that we share a common sense of spirituality (e.g. experienceing God) as human beings, or that spirituality is an individual experience? Or is it an individual experience of a common spiritual 'thing'?

I ask this because unless there is a possible commom agreement on the sensation of spiritual experiences, I do not see how you can 'prove' that this, or any other theology, is 'right'.

I guess what I am asking, in a rather clumsy way, is what the benchmark is whereby you intend to 'prove' your thesis?
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”

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Post by Rhuiden » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:32 am

Kopio wrote:I am doing a paper right now at school on Open Theism, which (in a very small nutshell) says that we truly do have a free will because God doesn't have exhaustive knowledge of the future, he only has exhaustive knowledge of the now. In other words...God can be surprised!
I also enjoy studying theology. I am currently reading all I can on Calvinism....it is quite interesting.

I do not believe in Open Theism as you have defined it here. A god who does not have perfect knowledge of all past, present, and future events is not really a god at all. I believe that God has perfect knowledge of all past, present, and future events...He is never surprised.

The relationship between God's perfect knowledge and our granted free will is quite difficult and I do not pretend to understand it. All I know for sure is that the Bible teaches both. It is a very interest topic though.

By the way, what class are you doing this paper for?

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Post by IreneY » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:51 am

What confuses with the theory of Open Theism is the following: If God doesn't know what's going to happen then no prophecy can be made. If He doesn't know exactly what's going to happen what is the extent of His knowledge? How do we know? And if we are to accept that He knows some things but not all how does it solve the "where's our free will" issue? We have some free-will perhaps? Not on major issues though? Will our actions amount to the same after all? (you can choose to go left or right but Armageddon is going to happen no matter what)

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