Revelation 20:10 - Doubt

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kalunga
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Revelation 20:10 - Doubt

Post by kalunga » Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:21 pm

Hello everybody. I'm here again!! :D

Now I have a doubt in Revelation 20:10: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"

The sentence that I highlighted don't have the verb are. I have read in another place, that the translators inserted it to make sense. My question is: the verse could be instead translated as: "where the beast and the false prophet were casted"? Why the translators renders the verse with "are"?

Thanks in advance!
Last edited by kalunga on Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Revelation 20:10 - Doubt

Post by Bert » Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:50 pm

kalunga wrote:
The sentence that I highlighted don't have the verb are. I have readed in another place, that the translators inserted it to make sense.
The translators didn't insert it to make sense out of the text but to have it make sense in English. In Greek it makes sense without a verb.
kalunga wrote:
My question is: the verse could be instead translated as: "where the beast and the false prophet were casted"? Why the translators renders the verse with "are"?

Thanks in advance!
"Are" (or "were") is the most likely meaning. It is very common for forms of εἰμί to be left out of a sentence (I would think more common than any other verb.) "Were cast" is fine as well though. Only because we know from the broader context that that is what happened. Without this context we would not know that. We would not have any idea how the beast and the false prophet got there; Maybe they lived there or hid there or jumped in. Then simply "were" would be better.

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Re: Revelation 20:10 - Doubt

Post by kalunga » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:41 pm

Bert wrote:The translators didn't insert it to make sense out of the text but to have it make sense in English. In Greek it makes sense without a verb.
Hum.. Ok! :)
Bert wrote:"Are" (or "were") is the most likely meaning. It is very common for forms of εἰμί to be left out of a sentence (I would think more common than any other verb.) "Were cast" is fine as well though. Only because we know from the broader context that that is what happened. Without this context we would not know that. We would not have any idea how the beast and the false prophet got there; Maybe they lived there or hid there or jumped in. Then simply "were" would be better.
Hum... I sugested "were casted", because the last verb was "was cast", and somebody told me that some verbs could be omited if they were repeated... I don't know if it is the case, because one here is singular, and the other should be plural. This person cited Luke 1:64.

In the case of the translation use "were casted", we could not say that they are still in there, couldn't we?

Oh, thank you for the answer! :)

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Re: Revelation 20:10 - Doubt

Post by Bert » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:25 pm

kalunga wrote: Hum... I sugested "were casted", because the last verb was "was cast", and somebody told me that some verbs could be omited if they were repeated... I don't know if it is the case, because one here is singular, and the other should be plural. This person cited Luke 1:64.
Yes that's right, and it does not matter that the expressed verb is singular and the implied verb would have to be plural. I am starting to think that the καί right after ὅπου may indicate that 'were cast' is intended.
kalunga wrote: In the case of the translation use "were casted", we could not say that they are still in there, couldn't we?
Probably not just from that sentence but the very next verb is plural so that tells us that they are still there.

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Re: Revelation 20:10 - Doubt

Post by annis » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:41 am

Bert wrote:Only because we know from the broader context that that is what happened. Without this context we would not know that.
Sometimes — but not here, alas — the relative could give you a clue, since Greek distinguishes "to where, at where" and "from where." We get no help here because, if the dictionary at the end of my edition of the NT is correct, Koine lost the "to where" set (ποῖ; ὅποι) and made the "at where" set (ποῦ; ὅπου) do duty for both.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by IreneY » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:34 pm

annis you are right, it's one of the things the Greek language lost to its loss really (less precision). Anyway, whether the verb missing is "are" or "were cast", the context (next sentence) makes it clear that the beast and the false prophet are stil there since the verb is in plural (they are all going to be toremented).

The repetition of και ( ὅπου καὶ τὸ θη?ίον καὶ ? ψευδοπ?οφήτης) makes "were casted" quite possible. Do the previous chapters talk about the beast and the false prophet at all? This might give us some clue.

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Post by Bert » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:21 am

IreneY wrote: Do the previous chapters talk about the beast and the false prophet at all? This might give us some clue.
Yes, chapter 19:20 states that they were cast in the lake of fire.
That plus chapter 20:11 is the broader context I was referring to.

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Post by IreneY » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:24 am

Ah! Thanks :) so since the reference to their being casted there is only a short way back I guess "were casted" is the most probable filler.

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Post by kalunga » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:42 pm

Hello and thanks for all replies! :D

Hum... I've noticed that when the writers want to use ballo to express throwing to a place, they always use eis. If the writer intend to use "were casted", the use of opou make unnecessary the use of eis? It works like an adverb/conjunction and a preposition?
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Post by Bert » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:17 am

kalunga wrote:Hello and thanks for all replys! :D

Hum... I've noticed that when the writers want to use ballo to express throwing to a place, they always use eis. If the writer intend to use "were casted", the use of opou make unnecessary the use of eis? It works like an adverb/conjunction and a preposition?
I don't think that the "ὅπου" has anything to do with that. Instead of saying that "were cast" was intended we could say "were cast into".
(There is a verb εἱσβάλλω but it is not used in the GNT.)
εἴς is primarily a preposition. I can't find where it is used as an adverb but I guess it is possible. Most (all?) prepositions were adverbs at one time. It is not a conjunction though.

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Post by kalunga » Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:30 pm

I have a book that indicate that opou in this sentence, works as a conjunction. That's because they understand that the sentence is a subordinate sentence, explaining wich "lake of fire and brimstone" is. And is the conjunctions that introducts subordinate sentences...

Thanks again!

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Post by IreneY » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:57 pm

it's a "conjuction" if you consider "where" a conjuction :) όπου is a relative adverb that shows the place (wouldn't be able to rembember the term even if I tried). He casted the devil where the beast and the false prophet .... (are, were casted). In this particular case we can even translate it as "in the same place ".

Όπου precludes the use of εις here. Think of it like this:

I threw him in the pit. I threw him where he belonged. I threw him there.

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Post by kalunga » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:13 pm

Thanks, IreneY! :D

I think I understand... I'm trying to discover why they used were... Now I see that "were casted" could be possible... :D

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Post by Bert » Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:31 pm

IreneY wrote:it's a "conjuction" if you consider "where" a conjuction :)
Oops, I thought he (she?) was talking about εἰς being a conjunction etc.

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Post by kalunga » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:01 pm

Bert wrote:Oops, I thought he (she?) was talking about εἰς being a conjunction etc.
He!! :D

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