Vocative case
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Vocative case
Is this simply used addressing somebody.
For example:
In the sentance, ''She has gone, son.'', son is in the vocative (if in latin)?
For example:
In the sentance, ''She has gone, son.'', son is in the vocative (if in latin)?
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A better example.
I think a best example of the vocative case is next:
Mother, please sweep my room.
In ths phrase, the Mother is in vocative case.
Mother, please sweep my room.
In ths phrase, the Mother is in vocative case.
nam ista corruptela servi si non modo impunita fuerit, sed etiam a tanta auctoritate approbata, nulli parietes nostram salutem, nullae leges, aulla iura custodient. (Cic. Deiot. 30)
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More about the Vocative case.
All the declisions cases only apply for nouns and adjectives, not for interjectiones like Oh. ...
nam ista corruptela servi si non modo impunita fuerit, sed etiam a tanta auctoritate approbata, nulli parietes nostram salutem, nullae leges, aulla iura custodient. (Cic. Deiot. 30)
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Vocative Case
Isn't this an example of the subjunctive ("Would that God save the Queen")?There are a few exceptions, for example "God save the Queen" could go either way with the vocative.
Here is a website devoted to the subjunctive:
www.ceafinney.com/subjunctive/examples.html
Does anyone remember the old joke about the "pluperfect subjunctive"? It involves a fish.
Tim
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Ciraric, you are completely right. Odysseus, I'm afraid that assessment is not correct. A noun in the vocative case is merely when that noun is being addressed. All the following in boldface would be in the Latin vocative:
I'm going to leave, dad.
Hey, Jake, give me another spoon.
Ow! damn you, stupid table!
"God save the Queen" is an example of the English subjunctive, meaning "May God save the Queen." It is not the English vocative. In Latin it would be, "Deus Reginam seruet."
Tjnor, I do not know that joke; how does it go?
I'm going to leave, dad.
Hey, Jake, give me another spoon.
Ow! damn you, stupid table!
"God save the Queen" is an example of the English subjunctive, meaning "May God save the Queen." It is not the English vocative. In Latin it would be, "Deus Reginam seruet."
Tjnor, I do not know that joke; how does it go?
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Re: Vocative Case
Do I detect a Mister Language Person reference?tjnor wrote:
Does anyone remember the old joke about the "pluperfect subjunctive"? It involves a fish.
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servo, servare is a first conjugation verb, so "God is saving/saves the Queen" would be a present indicative, which would have the form "servat".Ciraric wrote: What makes that statement different from ''God is saving the Queen'' or ''God saves the Queen''? Thanks.
Servet is in the subjunctive mood, making it a "hortatory" subjuntive (ie. let/may he save).
So "God saves the Queen" would be Deus Reginam servat.
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Thank you loads.Silenus wrote:servo, servare is a first conjugation verb, so "God is saving/saves the Queen" would be a present indicative, which would have the form "servat".Ciraric wrote: What makes that statement different from ''God is saving the Queen'' or ''God saves the Queen''? Thanks.
Servet is in the subjunctive mood, making it a "hortatory" subjuntive (ie. let/may he save).
So "God saves the Queen" would be Deus Reginam servat.
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I think that is a matter of interpretation. Personally I agree with Lucus.Silenus wrote:servo, servare is a first conjugation verb, so "God is saving/saves the Queen" would be a present indicative, which would have the form "servat".Ciraric wrote: What makes that statement different from ''God is saving the Queen'' or ''God saves the Queen''? Thanks.
Servet is in the subjunctive mood, making it a "hortatory" subjuntive (ie. let/may he save).
So "God saves the Queen" would be Deus Reginam servat.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Um... on closer inspection I seem to have put my foot in my mouth. I didn't quite read the thread thoroughly and thought you were saying that in God saves the queen the 'saves' is indicative, not subjunctive. I now see you did not. My apologies.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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No problem, I figured that's what it was. I don't think I can count the number of times I've misread posts and made confusing replies, just not on this forum, I hope, since this is only my fourth post .Kasper wrote:Um... on closer inspection I seem to have put my foot in my mouth. I didn't quite read the thread thoroughly and thought you were saying that in God saves the queen the 'saves' is indicative, not subjunctive. I now see you did not. My apologies.
Vale!
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I think the applicable difference here is "God save the Queen!" and "God saves the Queen." The traditional sentiment is using "save" which is what implies the subjunctive, i.e., "Would that God only save the Queen!" The statement using "saves" is a simple indicative, i.e., "God saves" or "God is saving." The latter erroneous construction is implies knowledge as opposed to sentiments. I suppose interpretation hinges on whether one is addressing God or whether one is addressing the Queen, though I can't see the verb being anything but hortatory in the historical usage.Silenus wrote:I'm confused...where do I interpret something differently from Lucus? (or am I just misunderstanding you?)Kasper wrote:
I think that is a matter of interpretation. Personally I agree with Lucus.
Latin-wise, Christian authors don't use "Deus" in the vocative...at least I don't know particular examples so don't fault me for my ignorance. But since the vocative of "Deus" is, of all things, "Deus," you can't really go wrong whatever your intent (until you hit the verb ). Christian authors use the vocative, however, with "dominus," i.e., "Domine." For example the first line of St. Augustine's Confessiones: "Magnus es, Domine, et laudabilis valde."
I do think that "God save the Queen," when said to the Queen in all of its hortatorial splendor is as above, i.e., "Deus Reginam servet." If one wishes to address one's God regarding one's Queen, then "Serva Reginam, Domine!" is more appropriate.
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Ah, but christians did use Deus with the vocative. For instance, I'm a Mass server and one of the firsts prayers I recite with the priest is: "Judica me Deus et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta; ab homine iniquo et doloso erue me. Quia tu es, Deus, fortitudo mea, quare me repulisti et quare tristis incedo dum affligit me inimicus..." And that prayer dates from the late Middle Ages, if memory serves me right.cdm2003 wrote:Latin-wise, Christian authors don't use "Deus" in the vocative...at least I don't know particular examples so don't fault me for my ignorance. But since the vocative of "Deus" is, of all things, "Deus," you can't really go wrong whatever your intent (until you hit the verb ). Christian authors use the vocative, however, with "dominus," i.e., "Domine." For example the first line of St. Augustine's Confessiones: "Magnus es, Domine, et laudabilis valde."
I do think that "God save the Queen," when said to the Queen in all of its hortatorial splendor is as above, i.e., "Deus Reginam servet." If one wishes to address one's God regarding one's Queen, then "Serva Reginam, Domine!" is more appropriate.
Vale!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!
Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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I think this is a problem with English, where the subjunctive and imperatives have the same form. Is the intent really to give a command (serva) to God?cdm2003 wrote:If one wishes to address one's God regarding one's Queen, then "Serva Reginam, Domine!" is more appropriate.
Now, what about that fish joke?
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library
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See this.
nam ista corruptela servi si non modo impunita fuerit, sed etiam a tanta auctoritate approbata, nulli parietes nostram salutem, nullae leges, aulla iura custodient. (Cic. Deiot. 30)
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I think it's, "God save the Queen!"--old sport--here, just ask Silenus!Ciraric wrote:What makes that statement different from ''God is saving the Queen'' or ''God saves the Queen''? Thanks.
So let's give three cheers for Her Majesty the Queen: "Hiphip-hooray, hiphip-hooray, hiphip-hooray!"Silenus wrote:servo, servare is a first conjugation verb, so "God is saving/saves the Queen" would be a present indicative, which would have the form "servat".
Fine, but according to the college/gymnasium standard for English-speakers, Allen & Greenough, hortatory subjunctive is usually found in the second person--serves "may you save"--while the Latin third person more often goes by the name "jussive"!Servet is in the subjunctive mood, making it a "hortatory" subjuntive (ie. let/may he save).
...et Libertas resonet! AmenSo "God saves the Queen" would be Deus Reginam servat.
Last edited by wetherby on Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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The fish joke
So a tourist comes into Boston and hails a cab. He really likes seafood, and so when he gets in he says to the cabbie, "Can you take me somewhere where I can get scrod?" The cabbie looks at him quizzically, strokes his chin, and finally shrugs and says: "Sure thing, pal. I get that request a lot ... it's just that I've never heard it in the pluperfect subjunctive before." *rimshot*
I think I first read this in one of Steven Pinker's books, but I'm not completely sure.
I think I first read this in one of Steven Pinker's books, but I'm not completely sure.
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More precisely, the so-called hortatory subjunctive usually refers to the subjunctive used in the 1st person plural, roughly equivalent to the English "let's..."Fine, but according to the college/gymnasium standard for English-speakers, Allen & Greenough, hortatory subjunctive is usually found in the second person--serves "may you save"--while the Latin third person more often goes by the name "jussive"!
For instance, here
A. A speaker uses the jussive subjunctive (iubeo) to express his will that an action take place (or not take place). The negative is ne. This subjunctive is usually seen in the first person, where it is sometimes called the hortatory subjunctive (if a statement) or deliberative (if a question), and in the third person.
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Actually I have a question related with this thread. In Japanese, I know there is also a imperative mood for verbs, but it is considered very harsh, only used when addressing the subordinates in the army... Most of the time, a command is constructed using either of the several subjunctive construction. I wonder whether the Romans also have such an issue. Do they really use imperative to give command to their peers? It may be a cultural thing, but it sounds to me very rude...
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Re: The fish joke
Remember to count the change in your pocket, me smilin' buckaroo, when you tell that joke in Manhattan!Didymus wrote:So a tourist comes into Boston and hails a cab. He really likes seafood, and so when he gets in he says to the cabbie, "Can you take me somewhere where I can get scrod?" The cabbie looks at him quizzically, strokes his chin, and finally shrugs and says: "Sure thing, pal. I get that request a lot ... it's just that I've never heard it in the pluperfect subjunctive before." *rimshot*
I think I first read this in one of Steven Pinker's books, but I'm not completely sure.
Next time in picturesque London, when I ask for scone with my tea & biscuit: "...an' do what?" the blushing steward may snap back, "It's shop policy not to date the customer and, besides, I don't even know you!"
PS: bellum paxque, thanks for the grammar review!
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The present subjunctive is often used for polite commands. Also, it's possible to use the expression, amabo te, etc, which roughly means "please." Another variant is quaeso, literally "I request."Actually I have a question related with this thread. In Japanese, I know there is also a imperative mood for verbs, but it is considered very harsh, only used when addressing the subordinates in the army... Most of the time, a command is constructed using either of the several subjunctive construction. I wonder whether the Romans also have such an issue. Do they really use imperative to give command to their peers? It may be a cultural thing, but it sounds to me very rude...
There are probably more options that I'm not familiar with.
-David
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It's also possible to use the construction of 'noli/nolite + infinitive' - which was considered polite (Cicero uses it when addressing the jury). Of course, that only counts for negative commands, i.e. prohibitions.bellum paxque wrote:The present subjunctive is often used for polite commands. Also, it's possible to use the expression, amabo te, etc, which roughly means "please." Another variant is quaeso, literally "I request."Actually I have a question related with this thread. In Japanese, I know there is also a imperative mood for verbs, but it is considered very harsh, only used when addressing the subordinates in the army... Most of the time, a command is constructed using either of the several subjunctive construction. I wonder whether the Romans also have such an issue. Do they really use imperative to give command to their peers? It may be a cultural thing, but it sounds to me very rude...
There are probably more options that I'm not familiar with.
-David
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I wonder if what is polite in the courtroom would be polite in conversation. In court, of course, a high degree of formality is essential, but that doesn't mean that you use the same type of constructions as you do in polite conversation. For instance, an advocate would never address the jury thus: "If you'd just give me the verdict I'm looking for, that would be great."It's also possible to use the construction of 'noli/nolite + infinitive' - which was considered polite (Cicero uses it when addressing the jury).
Yet that's the wheedling form of request used frequently in English today (cf. Office Space).
-David
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You certainly have point there, and I think it would be interesting to compare Cicero's 'polite' comments in his orations to his usage in his letters. I, however, merely meant polite in the case of the prohibition I mentioned - as in the difference between telling the jury 'Don't pay attention to that man!' and ' I suggest you don't pay attention to that man.'bellum paxque wrote:
I wonder if what is polite in the courtroom would be polite in conversation. In court, of course, a high degree of formality is essential, but that doesn't mean that you use the same type of constructions as you do in polite conversation. For instance, an advocate would never address the jury thus: "If you'd just give me the verdict I'm looking for, that would be great."
Yet that's the wheedling form of request used frequently in English today (cf. Office Space).
-David
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Even the most eloquent Cicero would himself neither shun the formal nor epistolic use of si vis "please, lit. if thou wilt" which can be more frequently cited in that virtuoso playwright, Plautus the grand master of Roman comedy, who also prefers the condensed, palindrome sis < si + vis for metrical scansion or vulgar effect.
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