Defective verbs

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bingley
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Defective verbs

Post by bingley » Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:48 am

Quoting klewlis:<br /><br />Quote from: Blasius on Today at 12:30:34am <br />permulti = very many; but you must always check it on your lexicon to see whether the verb/noun to which you have added the prefix "per" was used or not by classical authors.<br /> <br />why? can't i use it anyway even if they didn't? (or maybe they did and we just don't have record of it ;) <br /><br /> I was wondering the same thing myself, when the defective verb aio came up recently. We are told the present is aio, ais, ait, --, --, aiunt. How do we know that it does not just so happen that no examples of aimus or aitis have survived? Have any ancient authors commented that there are no such words as aimus or aitis?

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Re:Defective verbs

Post by Milito » Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:59 pm

"Defective Verbs"! Thank you! I was trying to remember that term last night and couldn't.<br /><br />It's my understanding - which could easily be incorrect! - that they are labelled "defective" by us, because we have no record of the "missing" parts. They may well have existed, but none of them show up in the literature we have left.<br /><br />I suppose that, theoretically, that means that, assuming they did exist at one time, future discoveries could correct their defects, but I also suspect that the chances aren't great....<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Defective verbs

Post by Keesa » Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:35 am

If you don't ask, you'll never know, which is why I'm asking an incredibly dumb question...what is a "defective" verb? I've never heard of them before. Is this something that applies only to Latin, so that I'll get to it as I advance, or did I fall asleep in English class one day? :-[ <br /><br />Keesa
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Episcopus
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Re:Defective verbs

Post by Episcopus » Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:01 pm

That really sucks! We should use forms for which even we have no record. We just should. We should not depend so much on records and classic latin authors etc. <br /><br />I agree bingley!
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Milito
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Re:Defective verbs

Post by Milito » Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:36 pm

[quote author=Keesa link=board=3;threadid=539;start=0#4814 date=1061724944]<br />If you don't ask, you'll never know, which is why I'm asking an incredibly dumb question...what is a "defective" verb? I've never heard of them before. Is this something that applies only to Latin, so that I'll get to it as I advance, or did I fall asleep in English class one day? :-[ <br /><br />Keesa<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Not to worry! They are not an English grammar thing!<br /><br />A "defective" verb is just one that "isn't all there". Some of its parts are missing. <br /><br />If you look at the example that bingley quoted, aio, you'll see that in the list of forms he cites, the first and second person plural are missing. So far as we know, they just don't exist. I **believe** that this is because the forms haven't appeared in the literature that we have left; I'm not sure if there's evidence that the Romans themselves didn't use those forms.<br /><br />Whether or not using the "nonexistent" forms in casual conversation is acceptable, I couldn't say - very few people seem to use Latin for casual conversation..... But if you do happen to be reading some Latin text, you won't find the missing forms.<br /><br />In any event, there are very few defective verbs. Very, very few.<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Episcopus
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Re:Defective verbs

Post by Episcopus » Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:53 pm

And who says that there isn't a perfect passive participle of esse >:( heh
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bingley
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Re:Defective verbs

Post by bingley » Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:11 am

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=539;start=0#4825 date=1061747581]<br />And who says that there isn't a perfect passive participle of esse >:( heh<br />[/quote]<br /><br />If there were, what would it mean?

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Re:Defective verbs

Post by benissimus » Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:19 am

Observe:<br /><br />"Things already been and about to be..."<br /><br />I would imagine that in Latin it would be something like futus because of the future participle futurus, but that form is, as far as I know, nonexistent.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

bingley
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Re:Defective verbs

Post by bingley » Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:07 am

things already been<br /><br />Surely ellipsis for 'things which have already been', and so an active past participle, not a passive one.

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Re:Defective verbs

Post by Episcopus » Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:29 pm

[quote author=bingley link=board=3;threadid=539;start=0#4843 date=1061788302]<br />If there were, what would it mean?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Well that was a sort of joke that backfired. <br /><br />To have been been...well that could relate to existence, something that a mother does to her child. A little more emphatic than to be born or its equivalents. <br /><br />And it would not be futus but foetus! ;D <br /><br />I shall use it in my latin story that I plan to write after I have finished learning the parts of the language. <br /><br />"Is Episcopus non ab sua matre foetus est neque puer equitis erat." <br /><br />Hey I can dream<br /><br />
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