The Bible as a Source of Knowledge

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ethopoeia
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Post by ethopoeia » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:56 pm

edonnelly wrote:
ethopoeia wrote: No, I actually dislike trigger-happy John Wayne
Did he shoot somebody, or are you just unhappy with the characters he played in movies?
I think I should apply now Cicero's sentence -please correct me if I'm wrong- odi delictum ac miseri delinquentem and aim for the character rather than for the person.

Of course, playing the character of a nazi in a movie doesn't automatically turn you into a nazi, just like playing the character of a cowboy doesn't turn you automatically into a cowboy.

However, showing the character of a nazi or a cowboy in an apologetic and heroic fashion may spread nazi or cowboy aesthetics or ideology, which is mainly:

1. racist: whites are superior to Jews, Indians, Blacks, Arabs, Spanish or any other people.
2. imperialist: whites have the right to settle wherever they please.
3. genocide: whites have the right to exterminate any of the aforesaid peoples.
4. fanatic: God will lead us to victory against our enemies.

I hope nobody here has that kind of ideology.

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edonnelly
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Post by edonnelly » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:08 pm

ethopoeia wrote: Of course, playing the character of a nazi in a movie doesn't automatically turn you into a nazi, just like playing the character of a cowboy doesn't turn you automatically into a cowboy.
OK, not automatically, but maybe sometimes?
ethopoeia wrote:may spread nazi or cowboy aesthetics or ideology, which is mainly:
So you equate nazi "aesthetics" and "ideology" with those of cowboys?

And didn't John Wayne perform in a lot of war movies where he was fighting nazis? So by your logic, showing his picture would also be spreading "anti-nazi" ideology, right?

I'm always amazed when someone feels the need to equate the object of their dislike with nazis. To me, it always discredits the argument (because a true equality is almost never there). It seems like something Hitler's propagandists would do if they were still around today.
The lists:
G'Oogle and the Internet Pharrchive - 1100 or so free Latin and Greek books.
DownLOEBables - Free books from the Loeb Classical Library

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ethopoeia
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Post by ethopoeia » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:24 pm

Well, it seems that Hitler happened to be a nazi :)

I equally share your concern about the many fake nazis wandering out there -that's the bad thing about nazis, you never know who's a nazi and who's not.

However, if nazis and cowboys were the same thing, I wouldn't have them compared, but both included within a broader category of global nazis.

Since there's no such a thing as global nazis, I can only compare nazi / cowboy aesthetics and ideology -white racism, settler imperialism, Untermensch genocide, religious fanatism- in order to draw a clear line between both.

For, if a nazi and a cowboy are different concepts, there must be a line, right?

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Post by Kopio » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:42 pm

Andrus,

You posted an excellent question, and one that I have struggled with. I know I am stepping into the middle of a conversation, but I would like to answer your question to the best of my ability.
Andrus wrote:Rhuiden that was something that bother me a little with the fact that God is consider to be omniscient. My soul (considering that I have one for the sake of discussion) was made by God, I presume that was made with some intention as I can’t see God acting by a mood. God when made it knew exactly the way He want it, knew exactly what kind of environment it would be exposed, and as He knows everything it must have known that I would be come an atheist, so how it is my choice that in your point of view will led me to eternal punishment?

Basically I can’t consolidate both concepts, free will and God being omniscient. I know that this is it a little off the original discussion in this post but follows naturally from the point that the post it is now.
First I must say that I do believe in eternal punishment, and it is one of my least favorite concepts in the bible. I don't like it at all, nonetheless, it is what the bible teaches.

For me (as well as you) I guess the issue comes down to this: If God made me this way, how can he damn me??

The answer is a bit more complex than the question, but to boil it down to it's essence, the fact that you are asking this question, illustrates your choice.

Here is what the bible teaches:

God desires ALL men (and women) to be saved, that is, to come into fellowship with Him, by His Son's sacrifice on the cross. This salvation has nothing to do with anything that I have done to earn God's favor, it has everything to do with how I respond to His Son.

God then gives us the choice: Accept His Son, or don't accept His Son. For those who DO accept His Son, God offers salvation (both temporally to a degree, but most importantly eternally). To those who DON'T accept His Son....God continues to offer the choice.

The fact that we are having this conversation, is merely another offer of God's grace to you. Ultimately the choice is yours, to respond, or not to respond. God did not make us automatons. He does give us a very real choice. However, when we make that choice, it never catches Him by suprise!

Does this make any sense to you at all? Or does it merely sound like semantics? My challenge to you is....test Him at His word. Get a bible, read it. Find the holes and the problems in it. Look at it for what it is.....a book of Faith. I truly believe that the genuine can be tested. For me, when I became a Christian, I refused to commit intellectual su1cide. At the same time, I do have to balance faith with fact. Personally I like to lean on fact, but there is a point where faith truly does have to happen.

For me, faith happened when I quit meth. I was a meth addict who had tried to quit numerous times on my own. When I hit bottom, and asked God for help to quit....I was amazed that it actually happened. I was quite dumbfounded, as were all the people around me. One typically does not go from being a meth addict into a non-user in a day. But that is what happened with me. For me this was a proof (i.e. fact) of God's existence. I responded in faith, and my life has never been the same. That is not to say there are not still days that suck, nor days that I swear far too much, or blow my top, but it is to say that overall, the pattern and path of my life has changed immeasurable.

Hope this helps make some sense of the issue to you. FWIW, I am NOT trying to actively convert you, I am merely telling you what I know to be true in my own life a I experienced it. Whether or not what I have to say has any impact on you is entirely your choice! :P

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Post by Rhuiden » Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:37 pm

Thanks for sharing your testimony Kopio - God is truly AWESOME
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Post by Rhuiden » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:04 pm

ethopoeia wrote:However, showing the character of a nazi or a cowboy in an apologetic and heroic fashion may spread nazi or cowboy aesthetics or ideology, which is mainly:

1. racist: whites are superior to Jews, Indians, Blacks, Arabs, Spanish or any other people.
2. imperialist: whites have the right to settle wherever they please.
3. genocide: whites have the right to exterminate any of the aforesaid peoples.
4. fanatic: God will lead us to victory against our enemies.

I hope nobody here has that kind of ideology.
I think what you are trying to do is assign these characteristics or ideologies to Christians. Only #4 can be assigned to Christians but not in the way you mean it. True followers of Jesus do not hold such beliefs. There are many who call themselves Christians and hold these beliefs but they are not true christians.
ethopoeia wrote:However, if nazis and cowboys were the same thing, I wouldn't have them compared, but both included within a broader category of global nazis.

Since there's no such a thing as global nazis, I can only compare nazi / cowboy aesthetics and ideology -white racism, settler imperialism, Untermensch genocide, religious fanatism- in order to draw a clear line between both.
I am curious, are you implying that John Wayne held these beliefs because he played a cowboy is some of his movies or that I do because I am a Christian.

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Post by ethopoeia » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:38 pm

Rhuiden wrote:By the way, the Heavenly Armies are doing battle right now. They are fighting a spiritual war with Satan and his armies. But get this, the outcome is already decided and we know who wins.

Rhuiden
God is awesome and very dangerous indeed.

Do God's armies stand before a court martial when they kill civilians? :)

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Post by ethopoeia » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:42 pm

Kopio wrote:First I must say that I do believe in eternal punishment, and it is one of my least favorite concepts in the bible. I don't like it at all, nonetheless, it is what the bible teaches.
Does God apply death penalty after life? :)

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Post by ethopoeia » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:58 pm

Rhuiden wrote:
Sanskrit wrote:
I would be destined to spend eternity separated from Him in Hell.
I have heard that it is very warm there, much better than here in the Netherlands. I like to travel to exotic places, can't wait to see hell.
I have heard Hell described in many ways but this is the first time I have heard the adjective "exotic" used.
Does God fly terrorist devils to exotic extraterritorial limbos instead of sending them to the actual hell? :roll:

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Post by Rhuiden » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:40 am

ethopoeia wrote:God is awesome and very dangerous indeed.

Do God's armies stand before a court martial when they kill civilians? :)
ethopoeia wrote:Does God apply death penalty after life?
ethopoeia wrote:Does God fly terrorist devils to exotic extraterritorial limbos instead of sending them to the actual hell?
Do you wish to have a discussion or just to continue to ask these insulting questions in an attempt to bait a christian to act in an un-christian manner?

If you desire the discussion, I am willing to participate but these silly questions are getting tiresome.

Rhuiden
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