Lingua Latina Pars I - Familia Romana

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edonnelly
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Re: Capitulum VIII - Ceteri rursus abeunt.

Post by edonnelly » Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:10 pm

mfranks wrote: Any comments?
I think you have the right thoughts there. The only suggestions that I would make, and these may just be style, but also may help clarify some of the sense:

feminae ornamentis delectantur - women take delight in jewels (are delighted by jewels) ["jewelry" is fine, too.]

Quae nullam aut parvam pecuniam habent - who have no or little money

ornamenta aspiciunt tantum - only look at the jewelry

Also, I like the "go away" better than "stay away" translation for abeunt. We already have many men coming (adeunt). Of these, some are buying, others are going away. [It's a nice pairing of adeunt and abeunt.] In any case, you understood the meaning.

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Post by Bardo de Saldo » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:45 pm

"At first, I thought the word was a pronoun [...]" ~mfranks

As a rule of thumb, the verb always goes at the end of the sentence, so whatever Iulius was doing, that was it.

Also, if you don't find a word in the dictionary, it's probably a verb form. You won't find goes in your English dictionary, for example, only go.

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Double "Betweens"

Post by mfranks » Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:11 am

I'm back with another couple of questions after taking a little hiatus from Lingua Latina. I haven't stopped my study of Latin - au contraire. I decided to supplement Lingua Latina with The Cambridge Latin Course. I cruised through Unit 1 and I got through half of Unit 2 before picking up at Capitulum Vndecimum again. I actually re-read all the chapters in sequence in two sittings in a day with little struggle until now.
Capitulum Sextum Decimum - Tempestas

Italia inter duo maria interest, quorum alternum, quod supra Italiam situm est, 'mare Superum' sive 'Hadriaticum' appellatur, alterum, infra Italiam situm, 'mare Inferum' sive 'Tuscum'.
The very first paragraph of the chapter is vexing! Why is 'inter' and 'interest' used in the first clause of the sentence? Both words mean "between".

As I am writing this, I might be solving my own conundrum - perhaps I should translate into the following:

Italy is sandwiched between two seas... But it still bugs me... How else should I look at the verb "interest"? inter-esse - to be between? I would love to know how others "think" about these things...

Another problem I'm having with Latin is with the passive voice.

When a Latin sentance is contructed using the preposition ab/a I have no problem with the passive such as in the following sentence:
Saccus portantur a servo.
The Sack is being carried by the servant.

This is straight forward and simple enough. But in a sentance constucted in the following way without ab/a (by) I don't translate it as passive in my mind:
Tum naves et nautae in mare merguntur.
Then the boat and the sailors plunged into the sea.

How is this passive?

Isn't the following equivalent?
Tum naves et nautae in mare mergent.
I've noticed in a lot of the Neo Latin books of Children's Classics such as Ferdinandus Taurus or Virent Ova! Viret Perna!! for example, they use alot of the passive forms of the verbs without ab/a.

So when ever ab/a is missing, I just translate the verb in my mind as if it was active. Is this wrong?

Maybe I need an English Lesson on Passive and Active Voice. I must admit English grammer was never a strong suit of mine. But Latin is certainly helping me to understand my own [native] language much better. I've been studying Latin since last May and every single day I am awed by how much of my native tongue was derived from Latin - it's awesome!

Thanks for any insights.

Cheers,

Mark

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Re: Double "Betweens"

Post by Lucus Eques » Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:50 pm


Last edited by Lucus Eques on Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
L. Amadeus Ranierius

SCORPIO·MARTIANVS

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Post by spiphany » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:15 pm

mfranks wrote:Why is 'inter' and 'interest' used in the first clause of the sentence? Both words mean "between".
It's very common in Latin to use both a compound verb and a preposition (particularly the same preposition already in the compound) where in English we would expect either a compound verb or a verb followed by a preposition, but not both. Part of this is because English likes to form complex verbs by adding a preposition after the basic verb, instead of using a prefix the way Latin does, so that prepositional phrases and verbs mush together.

Thinking of analogous forms, you would have in Latin "expellere virum ex urbe" -- "to expel the man from the city", or "to drive (out) the man out of the city". Even though the verb is compounded, you still have to use a preposition before "city" because it isn't the object of the verb. You could say "pellere virum ex urbe", I suppose, but Latin likes the extra emphasis. It seems unnatural in English, but if you see enough of it in Latin, I think you'll find that the redundancy starts to seem elegant.
Tum naves et nautae in mare merguntur.
Then the boat and the sailors plunged into the sea.
How is this passive?
Isn't the following equivalent?
Tum naves et nautae in mare mergent.
I think this is a case where the English verb (to plunge, immerse) can be used a bit differently than the Latin. I suspect the Latin verb is transitive -- you have to use it with a direct object. So to be active you would expect: naves nautas in mare mergent (the ships plunged the sailors into the sea). In your sentence, the sailors aren't causing the plunging, some unknown force or agent is. So they are "being plunged", passive.
I've noticed in a lot of the Neo Latin books of Children's Classics such as Ferdinandus Taurus or Virent Ova! Viret Perna!! for example, they use alot of the passive forms of the verbs without ab/a.
Not having examples, I don't know exactly what you're seeing, but there are several points worth mentioning:

1) Be careful not to confuse the ablative of agent (which is a person and requires a/ab) with the ablative of instrument or means (which is a thing by which something is brought about and does not use a preposition)
To use the previous example:

Naves et nautae a Iove [by Jupiter] in mare merguntur (abl. of agent)
Naves et nautae undiis [by means of waves] in mare merguntur (abl of means)

2) Passive periphrastics use a different construction (dative of a person) instead of the ablative of agent.
3) There are certain verbs which are deponent -- they have passive forms but active meanings.
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)

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Post by Brian » Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:29 pm

Savete iterum

A couple of words in bold are giving me trouble.

Lines 10-11 page 163 of Familia Romana

Sed cur sanguis de naso fluit Marco? Sanguis ei de naso fluit , quod Marcus a Sexto pulsatus est.

Is Marco dative or ablative? I want to say "of Marcus" but would not that call for the genitive? Eiis the dative but why? I don't like moving on until I've got it.

Brian

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Post by mfranks » Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:45 am

Salve Lucus et Spiphany - thank you for your comments they really help!

For Spiphany, I have a few lines from the Children's Classics in the Neolatin:

First from Ferdinandus Taurus
Mater Ferdinandi, quae erat vacca, interdum angebatur, verita ne solitarius sine amicis esset.
From Tres Mures Caeci
Statim Uxur cultrum acutissimum coruscans videtur!
From Virent Ova! Viret Perna!!
Dapsne mea respuetur,
Si sub tecto suggeretur?
and lastly from Arbor Alma
Defessus arboris in umbra meridiabatur.
Again, thank you for all of your assistance in helping me to progress in my Latin studies amid its many obsticles! You are all wonderful for taking the time to help me - it is greatly appreciated!

Warmest Regards,

Mark

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Post by spiphany » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:40 am

mrfranks, I think I see what you were getting at now. I thought you meant the sentences had some kind of noun functioning as an agent but not expressed with the usual construction.

Passive constructions don't have to have an agent stated explicitly. Often, in fact, if you do have to mention an agent specifically, the sentence should be rewritten in the active, as it makes for stronger writing.
For example, something like "Liber a me legebatur" ("the book was read by me") is much more direct if you put it as "Librum legebam" ("I read the book")
But you can also say simply "Liber legebatur" if you wish to emphasize the act of being read rather than the person who did it, or if the agent is undefined. "Liber clarus saepe legebatur" ("the famous book was often read" - i.e., at many times by different people. The "who" isn't important here, in fact, the point is that it isn't someone specific.)

That may have been more of a grammatical explanation than you were looking for, but I hope it's helpful.
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)

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Post by spiphany » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:43 am

Brian wrote:Savete iterum

A couple of words in bold are giving me trouble.

Lines 10-11 page 163 of Familia Romana

Sed cur sanguis de naso fluit Marco? Sanguis ei de naso fluit , quod Marcus a Sexto pulsatus est.

Is Marco dative or ablative? I want to say "of Marcus" but would not that call for the genitive? Eiis the dative but why? I don't like moving on until I've got it.

Brian
Your instinct is correct. Dative is sometimes used for possession instead of the genitive, particularly when the object is being emphasized rather than the owner.
IPHIGENIE: Kann uns zum Vaterland die Fremde werden?
ARKAS: Und dir ist fremd das Vaterland geworden.
IPHIGENIE: Das ist's, warum mein blutend Herz nicht heilt.
(Goethe, Iphigenie auf Tauris)

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Post by mfranks » Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:32 am

Spiphany wrote:
That may have been more of a grammatical explanation than you were looking for, but I hope it's helpful.
Actually, truth be told, I need all the grammatical explaination I can get! I'm rather grammatically challenged - hence my need for so much explaination... Latin is teaching me more about grammer than any English teacher over the years could ever dream possible. :)

Cheers,

Mark

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