Casa, -ae

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Keesa
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Keesa » Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:38 pm

[quote author=Lumen_et_umbra link=board=3;threadid=477;start=15#4202 date=1061126258]<br />Hey! You're right, Skylax. I didn't even bother to read the words in that list. They are predominatly repetitions. Besides, my inadequacy could only be in the summarization of the 3-rd declension nominative endings, not in declining and recognizing them - which really isn't difficult at all. ;)<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Mostly repetitions? Hurrah! You have just made me very, very happy indeed! <br /><br />Keesa
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Milito
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Milito » Sun Aug 17, 2003 5:08 pm

[quote author=Keesa link=board=3;threadid=477;start=15#4164 date=1061081709]<br />Thank you. I needed to hear that. Tomorrow I'll get back into Latin with a vengeance...and all my other languages, too! For tonight, I'm just going to be glad that it will come in time. <br /><br />Slainte! <br /><br />Keesa<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Here's a very simple way to look at 3rd declension nouns - they all have the same set of endings, which is how you know they're 3rd declension. And although they do sort of tend to mutate themselves away from their dictionary forms sometimes, you catch on pretty quickly to what they're likely to look like. So this generalization works for them:<br /><br />ENDINGS:<br /><br /> Singular Plural<br />Nom (whatever) -es (occasionally -is); -a for neuter<br />Gen -is -um (occasionally -ium)<br />Dat -i -ibus<br />Acc -em -es (occasionally -is); -a for neuter<br />Abl -e; (occasionally -i)<br /> -ibus<br /><br />Note that there aren't different endings for the different genders, with the exception of neuter plural nominative and accusative - which just uses exactly the same ending it used in second declension. That's easy, isn't it?<br /><br />Kilmeny<br />
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Episcopus
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Episcopus » Sun Aug 17, 2003 5:11 pm

hah that nom singular "whatever" actually helped!! <br /><br />
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Keesa
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Keesa » Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:22 pm

That is easy, Milito! Thank you. The nasty 3rd declension does not seem so frightening now! In due time, I shall properly conquer it. ;D <br /><br />Keesa
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Lumen_et_umbra
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Lumen_et_umbra » Mon Aug 18, 2003 12:59 am

The regular rules for the third declension are:<br />(Note: to recognize a third declension noun, you must look at the genitive singular, not the nominative, because sometimes the nominative sg. of a noun resembles that of a noun of another declension. i.e., scelus (neuter) - sin, wrongdoing, evil)<br /><br />Regular MASCULINE/FEMININE nouns of the 3rd declension<br />Nom (whatever) -es<br />Gen -is -um<br />Dat -i -ibus<br />Acc -em -es<br />Abl -e -ibus<br /><br />e.g.<br /><br />Virtus, Virtutis - Virtue/Bravery/Masculinity<br /><br />Virtus Virtutes<br />Virtutis Virtutum<br />Virtuti Virtutibus<br />Virtutem Virtutes<br />Virtute Virtutibus<br /><br />Regular NEUTER nouns of the 3rd declension<br />Nom -(whatever) -a<br />Gen -is -um<br />Dat -i -ibus<br />Acc (same as the nom.) -(same as nom pl.)<br />Abl -e -ibus<br /><br />Scelus, Sceleris<br /><br />Scelus Scelera<br />Sceleris Scelerum<br />Sceleri Sceleribus<br />Scelus Scelera<br />Scelere Sceleribus<br /><br />-I stem nouns (-ium nouns) of the 3rd declension:<br /><br />There are special 3rd declension nouns, which end with -ium in the genitive plural case. Here are the rules for those:<br /><br />If a feminine or masculine noun has the same number of syllables in the nominative singular as in the genitive singular, the noun is an I-stem noun.<br /><br />Nubes (nom), Nubis(gen) Cloud<br /><br />Nubes Nubes<br />Nubis Nubium<br />Nubi Nubibus<br />Nubem Nubes<br />Nube Nubibus<br /><br />CANIS (dog) and IUVENIS (youth) are two exceptions to this rule.<br /><br />If a feminine or masculine noun ends with -s or -x in the nominative sg. and has two consonants in its stem, it ends with -ium in the gen. plural. Note: you do not often see the stem in the nominative.<br /><br />Arx, Arcis (see the two bolded consonants which comprise the stem?)<br /><br />Arx Arces<br />Arcis Arcium<br />Arci Arcibus<br />Arcem Arces<br />Arce Arcibus<br /><br />However...<br /><br />Rex, Regis - King, Ruler<br /><br />Notice that the stem does not have two consonants!<br /><br />Rex Reges<br />Regis Regum<br />Regi Regibus<br />Regem Reges<br />Rege Regibus<br /><br />NEUTER I-STEM NOUNS<br />Any third declenion neuter noun, ending with -al, -ar, or -e, will have a different ablative singular, accusative singular, nominative pl, and a different accusative pl., and, also, it will have -ium in the gen. pl.<br /><br />Animal, Animalis<br /><br />Animal Animalia<br />Animalis Animalium<br />Animali Animalibus<br />Animal Animalia<br />Animali Animalibus<br /><br />Mare, Maris<br /><br />Mare Maria<br />Maris Marium<br />Mari Maribus<br />Mare Maria<br />Mari Maribus<br /><br /><br />Summarized rules for I-stem nouns of the third declension<br /><br />Masculine and Feminine Nouns<br />Nom (blah) -es<br />Gen -is -ium<br />Dat -i -ibus<br />Acc -em -es<br />Abl -e -ibus<br /><br />Neuter Nouns<br />Nom (-al, -ar, or -e) -ia<br />Gen -is -ium<br />Dat -i -ibus<br />Acc -(same as nom.) -(same as nom. pl.)<br />Abl -i -ibus<br /><br /><br /><br />I hope this helps!
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Lumen_et_umbra
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Lumen_et_umbra » Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:20 am

Note: In my 'little' reference guide above, I left out EVERY macron. Sorry. I just don't have the energy to do it right now.
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bingley
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by bingley » Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:54 am

Just a thought. The genitive is the useful bit which tells us which declension a noun is, so why don't dictionaries and grammars just cut to the chase and put that first, with a note where the nom. sing. is not easily predictable. It's not as if the nom. sing. is any more common than any other case.

Lumen_et_umbra
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Lumen_et_umbra » Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:02 am

That is a good point. Another thing, which I have wondered, is why dictionaries don't give the present active infinitive of deponent verbs so as to facilitate their being conjugated.<br />(I know that the present active infinitive of a deponent verb is never used, unless one counts the singular present imperative of that verb)
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Alundis » Mon Aug 18, 2003 7:40 am

[quote author=Skylax link=board=3;threadid=477;start=15#4196 date=1061121448]<br /><br />Well, in the words before, the form before the one ending in -is has got no linguistic value. It is neither a stem nor a nominative singular. It is the group of letters that the computer must use to proceed with analysis. The corresponding nominatives are CARNIX (?), FASCIS, BITVRIX (but you find always the plural BITVRIGES), TERGVS (TERGVS, TERGORIS is less frequent than TERGVM, TERGI) <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Thank you for correcting me. I didn't realize the words dictionary was so inaccurate--those are listed as nominative forms.
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Skylax
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Skylax » Mon Aug 18, 2003 8:20 am

I wouldn't speak of inaccuracy. After all, this dictionary isn't intended to a human user. Sometimes, the first form is a nominative (LAC LACTIS) sometimes a stem (it gives also LACT LACTIS, or BITVRIG, BITVRIGIS), sometimes a mere group of letters (TERG).<br /><br />It is a huge and remarkalble work anyway.

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