Casa, -ae

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Milito
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Milito » Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:09 pm

To quote Bennett (Sorry, Episcopus!)<br /><br />"Nouns of the third declension end in -a, -e, -i, -o, -y, -c, -l, -n, -r, -s, -t. The third declension includes several distinct classes of Stems -<br /><br />I. Pure consonant stems<br />II. -i stems<br />III. Consonant stems which have partially adapted themselves to the inflection of -i stems<br />IV. A very few stems ending in a long vowel or a dipthong<br />V. Irregular nouns."<br /><br />He includes -x as the -s type, actually, calling it a gumming-together of the -cs or the -gs sound. Only he uses much more technical terms for it.... and goes on with examples for about 11 pages.....<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Lumen_et_umbra » Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:21 pm

[quote author=benissimus link=board=3;threadid=477;start=0#4014 date=1060978970]<br />There are more...<br /><br />id est:<br />lumen, carmen, nomen<br />caput<br />os, bos<br />consul<br /><br /><br /><br />I am sure there are more than that.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Crap! I knew I had forgotten some... Oh well.
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Keesa » Sat Aug 16, 2003 12:17 am

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=477;start=0#3985 date=1060971063]<br /><br /><br />A point! A very good point! All of which means that that second ending, the genitive singular, is provided to keep you sane.........<br /><br />Kilmeny<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I'm always open to anything to help keep me sane! I need all the help I can get...<br /><br />Episcopus, I will not capitalize Dr. D'Ooge's personal pronouns. I told you, I'll respect him, but I won't worship him...Dr. D'Ooge is not the one who wrote "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." <br /><br /><br />id est maxime malum!! <br /><br />Does this mean, "He (it) is very evil!"? <br /><br />Keesa
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by mariek » Sat Aug 16, 2003 6:59 am

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=477;start=0#4039 date=1060981763]<br />To quote Bennett (Sorry, Episcopus!)<br /><br />"Nouns of the third declension end in -a, -e, -i, -o, -y, -c, -l, -n, -r, -s, -t. The third declension includes several distinct classes of Stems -<br /><br />I. Pure consonant stems<br />II. -i stems<br />III. Consonant stems which have partially adapted themselves to the inflection of -i stems<br />IV. A very few stems ending in a long vowel or a dipthong<br />V. Irregular nouns."<br /><br />He includes -x as the -s type, actually, calling it a gumming-together of the -cs or the -gs sound. Only he uses much more technical terms for it.... and goes on with examples for about 11 pages..... [/quote]<br /><br />You always have useful information like this. I'm filing this away in my grammar notes for future reference when I get to 3rd decl nouns. <br /><br />I guess I should add Benett's New Latin Grammar to my Amazon Wish List...

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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Skylax » Sat Aug 16, 2003 6:27 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=477;start=0#4080 date=1061017161]<br /><br />I guess I should add Benett's New Latin Grammar to my Amazon Wish List... <br />[/quote]<br /><br />... or download it from TEXTKIT.com !

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Skylax
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Skylax » Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:37 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=477;start=0#4039 date=1060981763]<br />To quote Bennett <br /><br />"Nouns of the third declension end in -a, -e, -i, -o, -y, -c, -l, -n, -r, -s, -t. The third declension includes several distinct classes of Stems -<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />I don't understand fully what Bennett means. Later edit : Bennett has the nominative singular in mind.<br /><br />If he speaks about nominative singular, you find indeed -a (poema etc., words that are Greek), but nor -c neither -t.<br />I forgot lac "milk" and caput "head", but there are no other such words, one can't speak about words ending in -c or in -t.Later later : and the -y is for MOLY an single word only found in the (Greek) story of Circe. Thank you, Alundis !<br /><br />If he speaks about stems, you find -c (voc-is) and -t (equit-is) but nor -a (the stem of poema is poemat- neither truly -o (caro is a form restricted to the nom sing, elsewhere the stem is carn- and the poor lonesome name of Dido is an horrible Greek name of which the stem ended in a "yod", the genitive DIDUS being explained by an evolution in Greek (didoy-os > didoos > didous).<br /><br />There is no intrinsic difficulty with the 3rd declension. What complicates the matter is that the learner has always to learn first the nominative singular. But, knowing only that, you can't find back the rest of the declension, because the endings add to the stem of the word, which seldom appears properly in the nominative singular. The stem of rex is reg-...<br /><br />Why ? It is because<br /><br />a) there are two endings used for the nominative singular : -s or [nothing];<br /><br />b) Both endings can modify the stem :<br /><br />1) the collision of the ending -s with a stem in consonant generates modifications : for example, -d and -t disappear before -s (calamitat-s > calamitas; cs and gs are written "x"<br /><br />2) a stem left alone without ending may change : a stem ending in -n may loose the -n : stem calon- "soldier's servant", nominative sing calo genitive sing calonis<br /><br />Now, the original stem isn't sometimes seen anymore nor in the nominative sing neither in the genitive singular :<br /><br />take the stem *homon- "human being". In the nom sing, it looses the -n, thus homo. But, when you add an ending to *homon-, it becames homin- because the short -o- is no more at the end of the word, but inside the word (a well known phonetic phaenomenon). So genitive sing hominis.<br /><br />Conclusion : often, the nominative singular is of NO HELP to build the rest of the declension. What matters is the form of the stem you find in the genitive singular. So don't learn only that "time" is "TEMPVS" : learn carefully TEMPVS, TEMPORIS (stem TEMPOR-). Or put it on your cheat sheet.<br /><br />VALETE

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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Milito » Sat Aug 16, 2003 8:35 pm

I think tha Bennett is sort of over-generalizing. Also, he appears to have revised his comments in his later grammars - his "NEW Latin Grammar includes the "x" stem.<br /><br />A sample of his logic is as follows:<br /><br />"I. Consonant-Stems.<br /><br />In these the stem appears in its unaltered form in all the oblique cases, so that the actual case-endings my be clearly recognised. Consonant-Stems fall into several natural subdivisions, according as the stem ends in a Mute, Liquid, Nasal or Spirant.<br /><br />Mute stems may end, -<br />a. In a Lapial (p); as, pincep -s<br />b. In a Gutteral (g or c); as, remex (remeg -s); dux (duc -s)<br />c. In a Dental (d or t); as, lapis (lapid -s); miles (milet -s)"<br /><br />He does not give examples of every possible ending. It seems that his ending-list is a combination of nominative singular and stem endings; for instance, he includes "honor; honoris" in his list of "s" endings, because it originally did end in "s" ("honos") as occasionally shows up in some poetry.<br /><br />In any event, I think he may be trying to categorize nicely nouns that don't like being pigeon-holed....<br /><br />Kilmeny<br /><br /><br />
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by benissimus » Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:38 am

Forgot pax, coquax, loquax.<br />There is also feles, which is a short E+s
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Lumen_et_umbra » Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:42 am

[quote author=Lumen_et_umbra link=board=3;threadid=477;start=15#4153 date=1061080163]<br />Given recent, and appropriate criticisms from others, I have revised my list of endings found in the third declension.<br /><br /><br />-e:s Nube:s (Gen pl in Nubium)<br />-is Canis (Note that Canis defies the -ium stem rules and does not end in -ium in the genitive plural)<br />-i:s Vi:s <br />-o: Ciciero:<br />-a:s Volupta:s<br />-u:s Virtu:s<br />-us Scelus<br />-e Mare (Note: Mare ends in with -i in the singular ablative because of rules regarding certain neuter nouns in the third declension. Also, it ends with Marium in Gen Pl)<br />-ar Exemplar (See 'Mare' above)<br />-or Auctor<br />-al Animal (See 'Mare' above, Gen pl Animalium)<br />-e:x Re:x<br />-bs Urbs (Gen Pl Urbium)<br />-ox Nox (Gen Pl Noctium)<br />-rx Arx (Gen Pl Arcium)<br />-rs Ars (Gen Pl Artium)<br />-er Imber<br />-ux Dux (Gen Pl Ducium)<br />-en Lumen (how freaking stupid am I?! It is in my name!)<br />-as As, assis (Gen Pl Assium)<br />-os Os, ossis (Gen Pl Ossium)<br />-ut Caput<br />-ul Consul<br />-a:x Pax - Thanks, Benissimus<br />-es Feles (Gen Pl Felium) - Thanks, again, Benissimus.<br /><br /><br />I really hope that is all of them this time; lest I seem even more of an idiot.<br /><br />P.S. I included a few extra pieces of information for those that haven't yet learned the 3rd declension. (Which things may actually serve as detriments to their resolve.) I haven't explained any of the rules for discerning between a -ium stem noun and a regular -um stem noun, and I have left out some irregularities in the declension of some of these nouns (Namely, the Nom pl '-a' and the Acc pl '-a' of neuter nouns)<br />[/quote]
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Re:Casa, -ae

Post by Lumen_et_umbra » Sun Aug 17, 2003 12:46 am

I hadn't finished my message-before-last (which I have now deleted) when I accidentally pressed the 'Post' button! ::anger:: >:(
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