U)PE/R

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Bert
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U)PE/R

Post by Bert » Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:34 pm

In cunlliffe's lexicon, in the entry [face=SPIonic]u(pe/r[/face] it says [in form comp. fr. [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face]]
Does this really mean that the one is (or was) a comparative form of the other?

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Paul
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Post by Paul » Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:10 am

Hi Bert,

Nice observation; and an interesting question.

Apparently [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face] and [face=SPIonic]u(pe/r[/face] are related.

In Watkins' "The American Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots", 'upo' contains these entries:

7. Basic form *upo. HYPO-, from Greek hupo, under.
8. Suffixed variant form *ups-o-. HYPSO-, from Greek hupsos, height, top.

Note: 7 says 'under', 8 says 'height, top'.

Now the [face=SPIonic]u(/y[/face] in [face=SPIonic]u(/yoj[/face] is also seen in [face=SPIonic]u(/yi[/face], 'on high'; cf. [face=SPIonic]u(yibreme/thj[/face]. Chantraine conjectures that its final iota may be a locative suffix.
Removing it and what Chantraine calls the the 'obscure sigma morpheme', we are left with [face=SPIonic]u(/p[/face]. He calls this the root of both [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face] and [face=SPIonic]u(pe/r[/face].

I'm not sure I understand quite how one gets 'under' from a root meaning 'on high, above'. Perhaps the latter always calls to mind the former, as in 'under high heaven'....

Evidently, English 'up' is cognate with [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face].

Cordially,

Paul

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Post by Kasper » Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:41 am

Paul wrote: I'm not sure I understand quite how one gets 'under' from a root meaning 'on high, above'. Perhaps the latter always calls to mind the former, as in 'under high heaven'....
Similarly, but in latin, the word "altus, -a, - um" generally relates to something vertical. Eg. "altus mons" means a high mountain, and "altum flumen" a deep river.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”

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Paul
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Post by Paul » Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:51 pm

Kasper wrote:Similarly, but in latin, the word "altus, -a, - um" generally relates to something vertical. Eg. "altus mons" means a high mountain, and "altum flumen" a deep river.
That's certainly interesting. It sounds like 'altus' has something to do with vertical extension.

But do Latin 'sub' and 'super' have a common ancestor?

Cordially,

Paul

Bert
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Post by Bert » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 pm

Paul wrote:

Evidently, English 'up' is cognate with [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face].
If it's all the same to you, I'll call 'up' a cognate with [face=SPIonic]u(pe/r [/face] :)

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Post by Kasper » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:13 pm

Paul wrote:
But do Latin 'sub' and 'super' have a common ancestor?
I'm just guessing here, but I wouldn't be surprised if sub, super, u(po\ and u(pe\r all have 1 and the same common ancestor.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”

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hyptia
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Post by hyptia » Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:37 am

If they do, it predates Proto-IE; it seems up, sub, and [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face] are from the P.I.E. root upo whereas over, super, and [face=SPIonic]u(pe/r[/face] are from the root uper.

Nonetheless, the roots themselves are quite similar, and P.I.E. has other examples of similar words having related meanings. :)
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Paul
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Post by Paul » Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:13 pm

Hi,

This is a bit off-topic, but can any of our native French speakers shed some etymological light on the pair dessous/dessus? Their meaning and appearance seem analogous to [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face] and [face=SPIonic]u(pe/r[/face].

I mean that they look alike but commonly have opposite meanings.

Thanks.

Cordially,

Paul

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Thucydides
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Post by Thucydides » Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:47 pm

Sometimes I think we out to have a philology subforum or similar.
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Post by annis » Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:34 pm

Thucydides wrote:Sometimes I think we out to have a philology subforum or similar.
The very same thought has occurred to me.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Thucydides
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Post by Thucydides » Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:19 pm

Monro ('Grammar of the Homeric Dialect', 1891):

HUPO:
The preposition upo usually means beneath... The original sense, however, seems to have been upwards, as in the superlative 'uptatos' - 'uppermost' (c.f. 'hupsi' - 'aloft', 'huptios' - 'facing upwards'). On this view we can understand whyhupo is not applied (like 'kata') to express downward motion...

HUPER:
...In respect of form 'huper' (for 'huperi', Sanscrit 'upari') is a comparative of 'hupo'; cp. the Superlative 'hupatos' and the Latin 'superus', 'summus'...
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Post by Thucydides » Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:28 pm

hyptia wrote:If they do, it predates Proto-IE; it seems up, sub, and [face=SPIonic]u(po/[/face] are from the P.I.E. root upo whereas over, super, and [face=SPIonic]u(pe/r[/face] are from the root uper.
PIE roots of 'supo' and 'super' surely?
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hyptia
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Post by hyptia » Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:42 am

Thucydides wrote:PIE roots of 'supo' and 'super' surely?
The root of 'super' for sure. Come to think of it, that must also be the root of [face=SPIonic]u(/ptioj[/face] :lol:
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Post by 1%homeless » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:01 am

Sorry to do some necromancing, but this topic in the thread is something that can't die in mind. It just drives me nuts because of the phonetic similarity and opposite meanings.

Anyway, dessus is from "de sursum" > "de sub versum". Dessous > sous is from "sub"... :twisted:

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Post by IreneY » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:14 pm

Well 1% homeless necromancing is sometimes so interesting isn't it? My etymological dictionary (Bambiniotis') says that
hυπό comes from IE *upo (below, under) cf sanskr. pa, Lat sub (with hard to explain s cf hυπέ?-super), ancient irish fo, gothtic uf, ancient islandic of etc
Same root as hυπέ?, h?πατος, h?ψος etc

in hυπέ? it says
from IE *uper(i) (up, upwards) cf sanskr upari, Lat super (> french sur), armenian ver, ancient Persian upariy, gotthic ufar, ancient german ubir (>german über), engl. upper etc
The meaning of the preposition hυπέ? came from its use for denoting a movement "from down towards up" (bad english there but the best way I can think of giving the exact meaning without getting into the "what does X mean exactly?)

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