Stanley Lombardo Reads Iliad Book I

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Eureka
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Post by Eureka » Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:21 am

I like this new guide, the logic is easy to follow. :)


I have a question about emphatic words, though... In line 7:

[face=SPIonic]'Atrei+/dhj te a!nac a)ndrw~n kai\ di=oj 'Axilleu&j[/face]

It looks like the emphatic words, [face=SPIonic]'Atrei+/dhj[/face] and [face=SPIonic]'Axilleu&j[/face], are spoken like lifted by grave words. And then [face=SPIonic]te a!nac a)ndrw~n [/face]are also spoken like lifted by grave words because of their association with [face=SPIonic]'Atrei+/dhj[/face]. Do these emphatic words consist of all proper names, or just the names of heros and gods?


What I can’t figure out is, in the previous line, why [face=SPIonic]e0c ou{[/face] isn’t a tone higher than it is. It looks as if it’s already been through one catathesis. It that the effect of the proclitic?

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Post by chad » Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:44 am

hi Eureka, you're right about proper names, they (like accents after grave-accented words) are pitched higher than the "standard" pitch peak, i've got a page ref on that old pitch model i think to Devine and Stephens.

you can see then that a)/nac and a)ndrw=n aren't emphasised: each has a pitch peak a note lower than the peak of the last word, that's what catathesis is.

as to what types of names this applies to, i can't remember if devine and stephens specified, e.g. people's names, names of cities &c. if you look in that section of D&S they might say; i doubt there's enough evidence to say though.

re line 6, there's no catathesis. it's anathesis: at that stage i inferred from d&s's statement that proclitics most likely have grave accentuation that they give rise to the "lifted by grave" phenomenon which a andrews calls anathesis.

all the way from the first syll. to the first accent of a lexical word (i.e. prw=ta) you have a steady rise. another uncertainty here is how to treat non-lexical circumflexes in this steady rise.

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Eureka
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Post by Eureka » Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:12 am

Thanks for your help, Chad. But I have at least a couple more questions...

If I understand correctly, [face=SPIonic]e0c ou{[/face] is so low because the 2nd note of [face=SPIonic]ou{[/face] must be lower than [face=SPIonic]dh\[/face], which must be lower than [face=SPIonic]ta\[/face], and so on?

If that’s the case, then I take it the aforementioned anathesis is on the word [face=SPIonic]prw~ta[/face]?
In which case, why isn’t [face=SPIonic]ou{[/face] similarly affected by anathesis? Is that some characteristic of those sorts of pronouns?



Sort of off topic... D&S is turning out to be a difficult book to get a hold of. The university’s library doesn’t seem to have it. :shock: (It has a very sparse Greek section.)

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Eureka
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Post by Eureka » Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:28 am

Have you got the "lifted by grave lexicals" and "lifted by grave non-lexicals" labelled the wrong way around on the new pitch model? :?

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Post by chad » Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:45 pm

hi eureka :)
If I understand correctly, e0c ou{ is so low because the 2nd note of ou{ must be lower than dh\, which must be lower than ta\, and so on?

If that’s the case, then I take it the aforementioned anathesis is on the word prw~ta?
yep :)
In which case, why isn’t ou{ similarly affected by anathesis? Is that some characteristic of those sorts of pronouns?
anathesis only applies to lexical words: non-lexs are included in the run-up to the first lexical accent.
Have you got the "lifted by grave lexicals" and "lifted by grave non-lexicals" labelled the wrong way around on the new pitch model?
not as far as i can see, the pitch drop after a lexical anathesis (i.e. lifted by lexical grave) is smaller than the pitch drop after a non-lexical anathesis (i.e. lifted by non-lexical grave). that's the same as on my old pitch model, and i have a page reference there to Devine and Stephens on this :)

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Eureka
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Post by Eureka » Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:40 pm

chad wrote:
In which case, why isn’t ou{ similarly affected by anathesis? Is that some characteristic of those sorts of pronouns?
anathesis only applies to lexical words: non-lexs are included in the run-up to the first lexical accent.
Have you got the "lifted by grave lexicals" and "lifted by grave non-lexicals" labelled the wrong way around on the new pitch model?
not as far as i can see, the pitch drop after a lexical anathesis (i.e. lifted by lexical grave) is smaller than the pitch drop after a non-lexical anathesis (i.e. lifted by non-lexical grave). that's the same as on my old pitch model, and i have a page reference there to Devine and Stephens on this :)
Oh, I get it. It's about whether the the word causing the anathesis is lexical or non-lexical. :)

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Post by Bardo de Saldo » Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:09 pm

In defense of Mr. Lombardo, I'll say that he's the only one who doesn't put me to sleep by the end of line 3.

One of the guys I've heard used to play a part in Star Trek as a Klingon.

One of the pitchers I heard sounded like a robot. It took me a while to figure out that I wasn't listening to the product of an automatic greek reciting program. I would beg him to stop insulting Homer and do his pronunciation exercises (a noble pursuit) with, say, Tucídides.

All of the stressers, including Mr. L, disregard the hexametric rhythm completely. That´s a shame, because that rhythm is the only thing about Homer that we can be sure about (excuse my grammar).

Pitchers do better with rhythm, but when I read along tapping at every arsis, the resulting taps are far from rhythmic. There's a tendency to rush through the dactyls, making their long vowels short.

Pitchers tend to sound emotionally dead. From their intonation, you wouldn't know whether Hector is holding his son or smashing greek skulls.

So, I'll give the golden apple to the pitcher who can keep the rhythm and figures out a way to combine pitch with phrase intonation. I know that you can do it, folks!

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Eureka
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Post by Eureka » Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:59 pm

To really sing well is not an easy skill, and in fact requires a natural ability. Classicists are not chosen for their ability to sing, so we can't be too pickey. (What's more, I think they are more interested in technique than performance.)

Stressing is much easier, because it's what we do in our native languages. If we pronounce it like our native language, we can easily apply our own language's phrase intonation to it.

However, I think to do that would be a cop-out. Most things that are worth doing require effort, and many of them are too difficult for some.


How to do this phrase intonation is a good question. I suspect that more important words would be slightly louder (just like in modern singing), so:

βη δ' ακεων παρα θινα πολυφλοισβοιο θαλασσης. (For example)

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Post by Bardo de Saldo » Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:25 pm

Eureka, I was commenting on the talkers, not the singers. I wouldn't hold against anyone attempting to sing the Iliad his/her lack of a good singing voice. Wait until you hear me (not pretty).

Before I found this forum I heard a guy singing the Iliad. I didn't write down the url, but you might have heard him also: a guy with a Greek name from an English university that plays an electric lyre. Well, his first line (I.1) stuck in my head, and the other day, looking at chad's pitch (or note ?) wave charts, I could swear that both matched perfectly (if I understood the chart right). Coincidence?

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Post by chad » Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:29 am

i've never heard it; the only person who has said that they've looked at my old pitch stuff is eureka. since i can't access media files online anymore could somebody please try to find it (that one which bardo talked about) and let us know whether it's good, and also this one?

http://turdpolish.com/greek4.html

thanks :)

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