Mute with L or R

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aemilius
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Mute with L or R

Post by aemilius » Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:29 pm

Hi to everyone :)

I am a begginer in latin and I am a little bit confused with the long syllables and the accent.

According to D'ooge a syllable is long “if it ends in a consonant which is followed by another consonant”, however according to other grammar books this is true for "any two consonants (except a mute with l or r)". So according to D'ooge the accent on tenebrae should be on the second E (tenEbrae),
while according to the others it should be on the first E (tEnebrae).

My question is who is right D'ooge or the others?

Thanks,

Timothy
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Post by Timothy » Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:24 pm

tenebrae
(references to D'Ooge)

Syllabification
vowels = 2
diphthongs = 1
syllables = 2 + 1 = 3

§ 9.1 A single consonant between two vowels goes with the second.
§ 9.2a A consonant followed by l or r goes with the l or r.

Thus: te-ne-brae

Quantity of Vowels

§ 12.2 A vowel is short before nt and nd, before final m or t, and, except
in words of one syllable, before final 1 or r.

But,

§ 12.4 Diphthongs are always long, and are not marked.

Quantity of Syllables

§ 13.2 A syllable is long,

a. If it contains a long vowel or a diphthong

Accent
§15 Words of more than two syllables are accented on the penult if the
penult is long.

Thus: te-NE-brae

What other source is this in conflict with?

Edit: Quick check of Perseus to get the vowel length of the second 'e'

tĕnē^brae

It's long, so §15 applies and it agrees with L+S.
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Timothy
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Post by Timothy » Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:33 pm

I see the conflict.

Collar and Daniell have:

§ 6.5 A syllable is common if it has a short vowel followed by a mute with l or r: te'-ne-brae

Interesting. I'll have to look at this.
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ingrid70
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Post by ingrid70 » Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:38 pm

See; A&G 11.c

C: A syllable containing a short vowel followed by a mute before l or r is properly short, but may be used as long in verse. Such a syllable is said to be common.

NOTE 1.--In syllables long by position, but having a short vowel, the length is partly due to the first of the consonants, which stands in the same syllable with the vowel. In syllables of "common"quantity (as the first syllable of patrem) the ordinary pronunciation was pa-trem, but in verse pat-rem was allowed so that the syllable could become long.

Ingrid

Timothy
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Post by Timothy » Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:21 pm

Right, I saw that and it is somewhat the same in Bennett.

Except, who says the vowel is short? L+S says it's long.

I don't like that this happens right off in a beginner's book like BLB. Initially, I thought a "common" vowels were just poetic until I came across this:

Bennett:
§ 5.B

Sometimes a syllable varies in quantity, viz. when its vowel is short and is followed by a mute with l or r, i.e. pl, cl, tl; pr, cr, tr, etc.; as in agri, volucris In prose they were regularly short, but in verse they might be treated as ling at the option of the poet.
Both of these words (agri, volucris) are changed forms from their base word (ager, volucer) resulting in the insertion of mute+r. The vowel length changes as a result and L+S has volucris with a long u. Both seem to be poetical in usage though.
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ingrid70
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Post by ingrid70 » Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:58 pm

According to my grammar, if the vowel before the muta + liquida is short, it stays short; it's the syllable length that can be used as short or long as the poet wishes.

If the vowel is long by nature (e.g. salubris), the syllable is always long.

Ingrid

Timothy
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Post by Timothy » Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:44 pm

According to my grammar, if the vowel before the muta + liquida is short,
it stays short;...
OK. It's just that it isn't short; it's long. At least according to the Lewis and Short dictionary. tenēbrae
...it's the syllable length that can be used as short or long as the poet wishes.
If the vowel can be considered "common"

The A+G section quoted: "A syllable containing a short vowel followed by a mute before l or r..."

It's not short. So the vowel shouldn't be "common"

"If the vowel is long by nature (e.g. salubris), the syllable is always long."

How do you get the vowel u in salubris to be long by nature?

A+G § 9
a. Before another vowel? no
b. diphthong? no
c. contraction? no.
d. before ns, nf, gn? no

I have to look it up.

When I look up tenebrae, the second e is a long vowel. The second syllable is also marked as long. The vowel doesn't fit the requirements for a "common" vowel.
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Timothy
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Post by Timothy » Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:16 pm

As it turns out, Ingrid, my real L+S has tenebrae as a short vowel, so it qualifies. :lol:

So, the BLB pronunciation is poetical.

aemilius, I hope that resolves the conflict in the pronunciations. :)

edit: remove reference to deleted post
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yadfothgildloc
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Post by yadfothgildloc » Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:55 pm

In poetic scansion, any vowel (but not a dipthng, becuase those are always long) before a mute + liquid can be either long or short.

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