The Bible: the word of God?

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Rhuiden
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Post by Rhuiden » Sat Oct 23, 2004 1:32 pm

A very good website for those interested is: www.answersingenesis.org

It is done by Christian scientists and the discuss science and the Bible. They have many online audio lectures that you can listen to as well as much more.

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Post by Rhuiden » Sat Oct 23, 2004 2:46 pm

chiggles wrote:Understanding that there is one true god, still, how can one say there can be only one religion? The different sects of Christianity, because they believe in the same God and same texts, but with their own dogma set, do they qualify still under the grouping of the same religion?

What about the sects of Christianity that existed until the convening of the Nicene Council? They believed in the same God, but as to the exact nature of Jesus they differed on. And any other sect that believed in texts now apocryphal? And of those with interest in the texts found at Nag Hammadi, and gnosticism? Even the author of John supposes that there are so many things that Jesus did, that if the content of all these adventures he partook of were put to book, the world could not contain them.
There is only one religion when it comes to Jesus. Different denominations, sects, or whatever you wish to call them, have developed over time because of differing interpretations and beliefs. This does not change the fact that their is only one true religion/church. All who believe the principle teaching of the faith are members no matter what the name on the building that the worship in each sunday says. I do not beleive that only Southern Baptists are going to Heaven. In John 14:6 Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me". Acts 2:21 says "And it shall be that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved"
chiggles wrote:What were the reasons for man intentionally creating false doctrines and gods?
Power, greed, stupidity, malice.....take your pick
chiggles wrote:If there is a religion whose teachings put merit on the same values as that of the bible, how would this compare? Would it need to have a Son of God to qualify? If yes, where does Judaism lie on this false doctrine meter?

If, in another religion, there exists the prime God, and a number of other gods, but these gods are thought of as nothing more than representations of different aspects of prime God (not worshipped but prayed to in the manner of Saints in Catholicism, for their own specialty). This religion also speaks of God throwing a portion of himself into an avatar and mingling with humans to teach lessons, how would this rest with you?
The same merits are not good enough, it much teach salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Nothing else will do.
chiggles wrote:"These false religions and denominations are easy to spot by comparing their teachings to the Bible"? You admit they are easy to spot, could you pls provide me some comparisons between your Christianity, and another religion? (God and time willing, this is).
Mormanism - teaches a works based salvation. If you do enough good works, you can become a god over your own planet. Joseph Smith said that the Book of Morman was given to him by an "angel of light" on golden tablets and was written in reformed Egyptian hyrogliphics (don't know how to spell that, hope I got close). "Angel of light" is one description of Satan, the golden tablets cannot be found and I don't think they were ever seen by anyone else, and to my understanding, there was never any such language as reformed Egyptian hyrogliphics. Also, the Bible teaches a faith based salvation.

Jehovah's Witness' - they believe that we are already living in the millenial kingdom. That Jesus actually returned sometime in the early 20th centrury (1912 or 1914 I think) and is now living on earth but He is invisible. They have also written their own translation of the Bible. The Bible say that when Jesus returns that everyone in the world will see.

I will say that I wish all Christians were as bold and active with their faith as Mormans and Jehovah's Witness' are.
chiggles wrote:What standard? I too do not know, but I'd expect Him to be consistent. Can you provide any passages which speak of Satan rebelling, or specifically those of his being cast from heaven?
2Peter 2:4 says "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgements"

Jude 6 says "And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgement of the great day"

chiggles wrote:Satan was in heaven no? Was he created unrighteous, if no how did he become so, and how did this unrighteousness enter into heaven? And afterwards, how did Satan and all the other fallen angels exit, if, as you say "Unrighteousness cannot exit, or even enter, in Heaven."
Satan was created and existed in Heaven (as all angels were) until he chose to sin and rebel. As a result they were immediately expelled from Heaven.


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Post by Emma_85 » Sat Oct 23, 2004 3:19 pm

I believe it is more daring to believe in evolution. There is no scientific evidence to prove any of it. What purpose would God have in hiding His existence? He created us to have a relationship with us. Also, why would a perfect God use an imperfect means of creation? Yes, if He chose that He could do it, but He would not, it would be contrary to His character.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articl ... 9EC588EEDF
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Post by Rhuiden » Sat Oct 23, 2004 4:07 pm

Emma_85 wrote:
I believe it is more daring to believe in evolution. There is no scientific evidence to prove any of it. What purpose would God have in hiding His existence? He created us to have a relationship with us. Also, why would a perfect God use an imperfect means of creation? Yes, if He chose that He could do it, but He would not, it would be contrary to His character.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articl ... 9EC588EEDF
Looks like an interesting article. I will read it in its entirety as my time permits but skimming the first section, I already see a mistake.

The article starts by saying: "When Charles Darwin introduced the theory of evolution through natural selection 143 years ago". Darwin's theory had nothing to do with natural selection, he said evolution worked through mutation. The natural selection argument is a fairly recent attempt to redefine the term evolution into something (natural selection) that is not disputed by anyone because it can be readily observed.

I may have more comments as I work through the article.

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Post by Turpissimus » Sat Oct 23, 2004 4:15 pm

Darwin's theory had nothing to do with natural selection, he said evolution worked through mutation. The natural selection argument is a fairly recent attempt to redefine the term evolution into something (natural selection) that is not disputed by anyone because it can be readily observed.
Are you sure? The full title of his book:
The Origin of Species (full title On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Species

I'm sure I must be misunderstanding what you're saying. I always thought both natural selection and mutation worked together in evolution.
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Post by Emma_85 » Sat Oct 23, 2004 4:32 pm

Mutations too can be readily observed. Mutations occur all the time, often they have no affect what so ever, some kill and very very few offer an advantage, like this mutation for example, which allowed people to sort of survive in the Malaria stricken rain forests:
http://sickle.bwh.harvard.edu/malaria_sickle.html

If God did create humans and then there was this flood and only Noha and his kin survived and mutation did not happen, they how come these people have sickel-cell mutations and we do not, even though we all had the same ancestors? Did God see them and feel sorry for them all dying from maleria and give them sickel-cell mutation? If he really felt that sorry for them, then why didn't he make them immune at the same time (cause half your kids end up dying from sickle cell mutations - if you have it in both chromosomes it's deadly) and give them the Bible instead of giving it to the jews?
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Post by copain » Sat Oct 23, 2004 5:13 pm

Rhuiden wrote: What purpose would God have in hiding His existence?
  • Sorry but I can not understand where you get your certainty that God do not hide his existence !
    But please do not refer to the bible - as usefull this book is for the christian community or for
    a single person itself - but the bible is in its complexity and through the many translation a veiling of God itself!
    And I never have felt - and I think many other people as well - the presence of a God like you can felt the presence of the sun for example !
    We only can - because of that world around us and the faith in so many peoples heart´s get an idea of the existence of a God.
    And that´s why Jesus itself said "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" (John 20.29)

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Post by Phylax » Sat Oct 23, 2004 5:13 pm

May I ask my question again? How many books are there in the Bible? I think this is worth exploring, because if we are to accept Rhuiden's or Klewliss' view that the Bible is the word of God, it would be useful to know what constitutes the Bible.
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Post by klewlis » Sat Oct 23, 2004 5:31 pm

Phylax wrote:May I ask my question again? How many books are there in the Bible? I think this is worth exploring, because if we are to accept Rhuiden's or Klewliss' view that the Bible is the word of God, it would be useful to know what constitutes the Bible.
There are 66 total, 27 of which are in the New Testament. This does not include the "apocryphal" books of the Roman Catholics.

Here is the structure:

OT:
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy: The Hebrew "Torah", which we call the "Pentateuch". Written by Moses (except for the last bit which happened after he died), these books consist of the history of the early Hebrews, including their laws and geneologies.

Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 & 2 Samuel, 1&2 Chronicles, 1&2 Kings, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job: Written by various authors. More histories of the Hebrews and Israel.

Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon: Poetry. Many of the Psalms were written by King David, but some were written by others. The other three are attributed to King Solomon.

Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel: The "Major Prophets", each of these books was written by its namesake (except Lamentations, which is attributed to Jeremiah). They contain prophecies about the captivity of the Jews (by Babylon in 586BC) and Israel's eventual restoration.

Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zepheniah, Haggai, Zecheriah, Malachi: The "Minor Prophets", again more prophecies about the fate of Israel.

NT:
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John: The Gospels, each telling stories about Jesus--what he did and said, his death and resurrection, etc.

Acts: Attributed to Luke, this book tells of the early church after Christ's ascension.

Romans, 1&2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1&2 Thessalonians, 1&2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon: The "Pauline Epistles", these are all letters written by Paul. The first 9 were written to various congregations of the early church, in the locations named in the titles. The rest were written to specific people.

Hebrews: Another epistle, which some believe was written by Paul but authorship is uncertain (and I personally do not think Paul wrote it).

James, 1&2 Peter, 1,2&3 John, Jude: More epistles. In these cases authorship is attributed to the person named in the titles. There is much debate over whether 1&2 Peter were both written by the same person, since the greek in each is quite different.

Revelation: The prophetic vision of the Apostle John.
Last edited by klewlis on Sat Oct 23, 2004 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by klewlis » Sat Oct 23, 2004 5:35 pm

Turpissimus wrote:
Darwin's theory had nothing to do with natural selection, he said evolution worked through mutation. The natural selection argument is a fairly recent attempt to redefine the term evolution into something (natural selection) that is not disputed by anyone because it can be readily observed.
Are you sure? The full title of his book:
The Origin of Species (full title On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life)
Strange, my copy of the book does not have that longer title. But it is a cheap copy. And I haven't read the book so I guess I shouldn't talk about it. :)

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