Ooh ooh ooh!

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annis
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Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by annis » Thu Oct 14, 2004 7:59 pm

I just got email from Amazon telling me my copy of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (Ancient Greek Edition) has shipped.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by Episcopus » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:45 pm

Glad to hear it :) Hope you enjoy it annis as I have its latin version, despite some odd mistakes and unnecessary doings. For example, latin does not need any italics since the emphasis may be conveyed with a difference in word order. However, the experienced author, due to some odd temporary lapses in his usually witty renderings, uses regular word order which would not properly convey the exact message and lobs in italics instead where they have been used in the english. That made me sad. Harsh times.
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Post by Turpissimus » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:22 pm

You know, I saw it in the Romford branch of Waterstones. In Romford for ----'s sake. If there is a single citizen of Romford who teaches him or herself classical languages in his spare time I should very much like to meet him.

I assume though that the book was intended for joke purchases. Heaven knows it's surprising enough that there's an actual shop selling books. Whenever my classmates caught me reading in school they assumed it was pornography.
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Post by annis » Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:44 pm

Episcopus wrote:Hope you enjoy it annis as I have its latin version, despite some odd mistakes and unnecessary doings.
At least you can recognize unnecessary doings. One of the Amazon reviews of the Latin version goes on about the bad editing... because of the lower case letters at the beginning of sentences. A quick glance at an OCT would clear that up.
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Post by Phylax » Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:27 pm

There's a nice article by the translator at
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~loxia ... potter.htm
(you may have to be forgiving of a few typos in the piece), which discusses how he arrived at some of his translations: ικαποσφαιρική , "Icarusball" for Quidditch, for example, and φθαστέον for "snitch". He certainly seems to have great fun doing it!

Which reminds me: I've got a copy of Winnie ille Pu A.A. Milnei (Londonii: Sumptibus Methueni et Sociorum, MCMLX), and if anyone would like me to, I could scan a page or two for them. The map on the end-papers is a particular delight - Eyore's habitation is marked thus - "LUCUS LUGUBRIS JORIS. TRISTIS ET PALUSTRIS", and the direction to the North Pole "AD POLUM VII TRIONALEM". When the translation came out, the reviewer in The Times Literary Review actually did his in Latin: "Oro te atque obsecro, Lenardius, ut pari arte et alia Britannica opera latine mox reddeas. [... etc.]" Those were the days!
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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by PeterD » Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:45 pm

annis wrote:I just got email from Amazon telling me my copy of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (Ancient Greek Edition) has shipped.
No!!!

Say it ain't so, William!
Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by annis » Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:42 am

PeterD wrote:Say it ain't so, William!
Why?
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τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by classicalclarinet » Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:34 am

I think he was crying of unrestrained joy? :wink:

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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by mingshey » Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:35 pm

annis wrote:I just got email from Amazon telling me my copy of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (Ancient Greek Edition) has shipped.
Wow, at last!
I'd like to order my copy, but I should learn more Greek before I could enjoy it,

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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by annis » Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:08 pm

mingshey wrote:I'd like to order my copy, but I should learn more Greek before I could enjoy it
Get it for unprepped reading practice. Just read, don't fuss over every word and structure. You'd be surprised how useful this can be at solidifying what you do know. And I doubt very much (but don't know yet) that the prose'll be as tricksy as the usual Greek authors, making it good for this sort of approach.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
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Post by Geoff » Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:25 pm

I ordered mine. I was going to hold off, but then I thought about how terribly I'd kick myself if it was a short run and I missed it. Mine, however, has not yet shipped :cry:

Oh, well, it will me some time before I can read it.

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Post by annis » Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:16 pm

classicalclarinet wrote:I think he was crying of unrestrained joy?
That must be it.
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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by PeterD » Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:51 pm

annis wrote:
PeterD wrote:Say it ain't so, William!
Why?
I wish you didn't ask. Now, I have to reply. :(

I tried reading one of the Harry Potter books a couple of years ago to see what all the commotion was about. I thought that it was not well written nor very imaginative -- it was horrid. I can't understand why any decent teacher would ever promote such trash to her young students.

J. K. Rowling is no Roald Dahl. She has absolutely no literary talent whatsoever, and to translate her trash into Greek is just sickening.

OK, William, let me have it. :)

~PeterD
Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by Democritus » Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:23 pm

PeterD wrote:I tried reading one of the Harry Potter books a couple of years ago to see what all the commotion was about. I thought that it was not well written nor very imaginative; in short, it was horrid. I can't understand why any decent teacher would ever promote such trash to her young students.

J. K. Rowling is no Roald Dahl. She has absolutely no literary talent whatsoever, and to translate her trash into Greek is just sickening.
I avoided this book for a long time, because of all the hype, and besides I had other things to read. I started reading the Latin translation, and it was then that I realized the story is not so bad. It's just a bizzarre little comedy. It's not only the wizardry that is fantasic, it's also the impossibly cruel behavior of Harry's Aunt and Uncle.

This book reminds me of Youth in Revolt by C.D. Payne. Youth in Revolt is not exactly great literature, but I enjoyed it immensely. In both cases, it seems like the authors made up the story as they went along. These are books you read for fun. The stories are not deep or philosophical, they are just tales of things that happened. Sometimes that's all you're looking for, in a book. It's easy for me to see that certain readers might really get a kick out of Potter.

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Post by Geoff » Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:28 pm

The More I read deep writings over Scripture, I find myself refreshed by things more simplistic. I had altogether stopped reading for fun. I look forward to reading HP in Greek. I too had avoided the books b/c of hype. However, now I'm avoiding it so I don't become familiar with it in English before I read the Greek.

I plan to read more fluff fiction in the future. You can forget how to read noncritically.

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Post by Emma_85 » Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:12 am

Ah, good to know it's available now. I'll probably get someone to buy it for me for x-mas :D .
I'm surprise too that it's available at a normal book store :shock: .
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Post by classicalclarinet » Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:23 am

Me too.. you must have a hell of a bookstore..

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Post by Emma_85 » Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:49 am

Well, it was in Waterstones. Not like he found it in WHSmiths or some crappy place like that. I would have expected to find it in the London branch of Waterstones, but not really in Romford. They probably shipped copies to all their branches in the UK.
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Post by classicalclarinet » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:05 am

yeah.. strange..... it will be very weirder even if they did that and the books actually sold.. :P

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Post by Episcopus » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:05 am

The book is great when you are like 9. And the fact that she doesn't try to write well makes it more accessible, the intricate detail of the surroundings that she describes permits that she not have to do all that cheap vivid imagery with big words that I doesn't know!
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Post by Emma_85 » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:07 am

The first book really is for children. But with each book the language become more difficult as each book is basically written for a child the age of Harry Potter - so as Harry grows up so does her writing.
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Post by classicalclarinet » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:08 am

:lol: Nice way of putting it episcope! I very liked the last one (with exception of using capitals like she was a Roman). I shall buy the next one when it comes out. It might not be best literature, but it's a Children's book. :P

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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by annis » Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:15 pm

PeterD wrote:OK, William, let me have it. :)
Well, I've never read the HP books before, because I don't read many young adult/children's books, and partly also because I find the marketing juggernaut surrounding the books repulsive. So I didn't get the book because I thought some literary gem had been cast into Greek. I got it because I think it's amusing and cool that it's even possible for a modern book to be cast into Attic Greek, get published, and that people are buying it.

I have Winnie the Pooh in Latin. I'm not going to miss Harry Potter in Greek.

It arrived yesterday, while I was in Milwaukee reliving my youth at a Morrissey concert:

δούρσλειος καὶ ἡ γυνὴ ἐνῴκουν τῇ τετάρτῃ οἰκίᾳ τῇ τῆς τῶν μυρσίνων ὁδοῦ· ἐσεμνύνοντο δὲ περὶ ἑαυτοὺς ὡς οὐδὲν διαφέρουσι τῶν ἄλλων ἀνθρώπων, τούτου δ’ ἕνεκα χάριν πολλὴν ᾔδεσαν.
Last edited by annis on Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Turpissimus » Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:37 pm

δούρσλειος καὶ ἡ γυνὴ ἐνῴκουν τῇ τετάρτῃ οἰκίᾳ τῇ τῆς τῶν μυρσίνων ὁδοῦ· ἐσεμνύνοντο δὲ περὶ ἑαυτοὺς ὡς οὐδὲν δαιφέρουσι τῶν ἄλλων ἀνθρώπων, τούτου δ’ ἕνεκα χάριν πολλὴν ᾔδεσαν.
Well, you just have to tell me what this means. You can't just quote Morrissey in Ancient Greek and then leave it there . . . (and there's a sentence I never thought I'd have to use).

Two can play at that game:

Tanto magis me praetermittis, quanto propinquius venio. tempus teris.
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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by Emma_85 » Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:08 pm

annis wrote: δούρσλειος καὶ ἡ γυνὴ ἐνῴκουν τῇ τετάρτῃ οἰκίᾳ τῇ τῆς τῶν μυρσίνων ὁδοῦ· ἐσεμνύνοντο δὲ περὶ ἑαυτοὺς ὡς οὐδὲν δαιφέρουσι τῶν ἄλλων ἀνθρώπων, τούτου δ’ ἕνεκα χάριν πολλὴν ᾔδεσαν.
Eh, better break up long sentences or sp-ionic screws it all up and I can't read long sentences :P .

Well, you just have to tell me what this means. You can't just quote Morrissey in Ancient Greek and then leave it there . . . (and there's a sentence I never thought I'd have to use).
I think he might have been quoting someone else :wink:
Dursly and his wife lived in the forth house, that was in the road of Myrsinos (eh... already a word I don't know... I'd better get my dictionary before I just start guessing...).
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Post by Turpissimus » Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:58 pm

I think he might have been quoting someone else
Bah, one day I'm going to learn Ancient Greek. They say the syntax is considerably easier than Latin. Of course the vocabulary is a good deal more varied, but I might come to like that. I'm getting a bit tired of Latin words with 30+ meanings.
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Post by annis » Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:12 pm

Turpissimus wrote:Bah, one day I'm going to learn Ancient Greek. They say the syntax is considerably easier than Latin.
They do? Which particular they is this?
Of course the vocabulary is a good deal more varied, but I might come to like that. I'm getting a bit tired of Latin words with 30+ meanings.
Greek has some of that too, I'm afraid.
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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by annis » Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:14 pm

Emma_85 wrote:(eh... already a word I don't know... I'd better get my dictionary before I just start guessing...).
And my typos don't help much. δαιφ‐ should be διαφ‐.
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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by PeterD » Sun Oct 17, 2004 10:39 pm

annis wrote:Well, I've never read the HP books before, because I don't read many young adult/children's books, and partly also because I find the marketing juggernaut surrounding the books repulsive.
Originally, J. K. Rowlings couldn't get her work published because it was considered awful. It did, eventually. And, like you stated above, were it not for the extensive marketing (plus a lot of horrible teachers), her books would never make it.
I have Winnie the Pooh in Latin. I'm not going to miss Harry Potter in Greek.
Children's gems like Winnie the Pooh, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, etc., deserve to be translated into as many languages as possible, including Latin and Greek. But, J. K. Rowlings' trash should be placed where trash belongs -- in a garbage pit. The how-to-instructions of a prophylactic package has more literary merit than HP.

I am sorry if I'm coming across as sarcastic or pompous, William. That is not my intention. I sincerely believe that it is a mockery for anyone, especially a Classics professor, to subject the Greek language to trash. Don't Classics professors have better things to do? Denniston must be rolling in his grave!

OK, let me have some more if you wish, William. :)

~PeterD
Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by annis » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:00 pm

PeterD wrote:I am sorry if I'm coming across as sarcastic or pompous, William. That is not my intention. I sincerely believe that it is a mockery for anyone, especially a classical professor, to subject the Greek language to trash.
Well, you don't seem sarcastic, and I was going to say you're pushing hard on pompous, but really I find your objections mystifying. Greek is a language, not a person. I don't think it worries about much, including being mocked. And if it has survived with its dignity and literary status intact in spite of the voyeuristic sadism and corpulent language of Nonnos' Dionysiaca - all fourty-eight Freudian books of it - I doubt very much it is diminished by having the pedestrian prose of children's fiction translated into it.
Don't classical professors have better things to do?
Retired classical professors. And evidently not one of them.
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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by PeterD » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:21 pm

annis wrote:Greek is a language, not a person. I don't think it worries about much, including being mocked.
-- but, its users do.

I guess because I am of Greek heritage -- both parents are Greek -- maybe I worry a little more than others of things Greek.
And if it has survived with its dignity and literary status intact in spite of the voyeuristic sadism and corpulent language of Nonnos' Dionysiaca - all fourty-eight Freudian books of it - I doubt very much it is diminished by having the pedestrian prose of children's fiction translated into it.
Touche!

All right, I won't let it get under my skin. Still, I can't believe they chose Rowling over Dahl. :?
Fanatical ranting is not just fine because it's eloquent. What if I ranted for the extermination of a people in an eloquent manner, would that make it fine? Rather, ranting, be it fanatical or otherwise, is fine if what is said is true and just. ---PeterD, in reply to IreneY and Annis

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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by mingshey » Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:21 am

PeterD wrote: All right, I won't let it get under my skin. Still, I can't believe they chose Rowling over Dahl. :?
It's not a project to traslate world's great literary heritages into Greek, sort of. It was just a HP translation project.

I do wish "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats" were in Ancient Greek, (make it epic, if it be). And I wish I could someday read Chuangtzu in Ancient Greek. But there was no such attempt to translate them into AG. Even the original works of the Greek Authors are rare in the market. Because they just don't sell.

It's a pity the most selling Greek literature is a not so well written children's phantasy. But if it is put in good Greek, then it's a good chance for AG to attract audience. Then there is the Troy effect. And their synergetic effect could serve a good purpose, like Gollum did for the happy end of LotR.

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Post by Emma_85 » Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:27 am

Well, you should read the books before you criticise them. The first one was, well I think it was her first book. That it's not expertly written is normally, but they do get better (well, ok, the fifth one wasn't brilliant). They aren't all that bad, and I think they are the best childrend’s books around at the moment. They are on par with Dahl, because people do like reading them and you don't have to be 10 to like them (I'm adding that bit in case you then say: ah, but kids like the New Power Rangers. ONLY kids can enjoy that crap though :P ). At first they read like a Enid Blyton book and you think you're going to be sick, but they do get better, much better. You can hype up a film or a book, but it normally won't work if the film or book really is that terrible. I mean like Van Helsing for example. Everyone said it would be great, but it was crap and even though people did go to the cinema to see it they won't be buying the DVD. If HP really was that bad, believe me, I wouldn't have bothered to buy the next books. It's not great literature, it's a children’s book, and people can relate to Harry because they too are stuck in a school with some horrible Snape-like teachers (or am I the only one to be so lucky?).

And like Will said, I doubt the Greek language will mind :wink: . It's just for fun, you don't have to read it if you don't want to.
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Post by annis » Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:57 pm

In my excitement I forgot to say: the print quality is very clear. It's a nice Oxford style font, uses subscript rather than adscript iota (I had fears about this... it requires more space between lines for subscript), and otherwise seems to follow OCT conventions on punctuation and capitalization (lower case at the beginning of sentences in paragraphs; no quote marks).
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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by annis » Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:45 pm

mingshey wrote:And I wish I could someday read Chuangtzu in Ancient Greek.
But! But! Mingshey, you're going to make my head explode for even saying that. How would you write Master Zhuang's name in Greek? Or the Peng bird? Or poor, picked-on Hui-zi?

I can barely get Zhuangzi into English. Now I suddenly feel the urge to translate a passage or two of Inner Chapters into Greek.

I shall surely lose my mind.

Perhaps the turtle with his tail in the mud story is a good start...
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τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by Turpissimus » Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:00 pm

I swear I read somewhere that Greek is somewhat easier to read than Latin.

Here, at the bottom of this page. I swear also that I've heard Latin syntax to be a good deal more complicated than that of Greek. Do the Greeks have long orationes obliquae with all verbs in the infinitive, and long nested sentences with relative clauses in unexpected places? I'm not too worried about strange constructions exactly, just surprising or unclear ones.

Bah, perhaps I'd be better off reading Beginner's Greek Syntax.

EDIT: At that page I've just linked to, one teacher says:

"“If our Latin teachers now unacquainted with Greek but realize that after the initial difficulty with the forms is got over -- and this would mean in three or four months for the vigorous and capable mature student -- Greek is far easier than Latin for most persons. Besides this, Greek is the language of a literature far superior to the Roman, and unsurpassed in masterpieces by the combined literatures of the world."
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Post by annis » Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:17 pm

Turpissimus wrote:Do the Greeks have long orationes obliquae with all verbs in the infinitive,
Yes. Herodotus, after a few words of introduction, starts off his Histories with an extended oblique oration.
and long nested sentences with relative clauses in unexpected places? I'm not too worried about strange constructions exactly, just surprising or unclear ones.
Certainly long nested sentences, but I should say that I spend most of my time in poetry, where the lengthier syntactic apparitions are rare due to the meter. I gather Thucydides is capable of some remarkable constructions.
"“If our Latin teachers now unacquainted with Greek but realize that after the initial difficulty with the forms is got over -- and this would mean in three or four months for the vigorous and capable mature student -- Greek is far easier than Latin for most persons.
Huh. There's a lot hiding under that "initial difficulty with the forms."
Besides this, Greek is the language of a literature far superior to the Roman, and unsurpassed in masterpieces by the combined literatures of the world."
Ahh, unabashed, old-fashioned Hellenistic snobbery. It warms the heart. ;)
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

mingshey
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Re: Ooh ooh ooh!

Post by mingshey » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:12 am

annis wrote:
mingshey wrote:And I wish I could someday read Chuangtzu in Ancient Greek.
But! But! Mingshey, you're going to make my head explode for even saying that. How would you write Master Zhuang's name in Greek? Or the Peng bird? Or poor, picked-on Hui-zi?
Many Hebrew names are transliterated into Greek in Old and New testaments and see how Gongzi(or Gongfuzi) is wonderfully latinized as Confucius. One who deeply understands the nature of Greek (and of old Chinese)language would surely find a suitable transliteration for Master Zhuang. With my shallow understanding I have ζοαν ζου in mind, though. In Eastern Asian countries the chinese characters are adapted to each language and has independent pronunciation systems and Greek language could have it's own adapted pronunciation if needed.
I can barely get Zhuangzi into English. Now I suddenly feel the urge to translate a passage or two of Inner Chapters into Greek.

I shall surely lose my mind.

Perhaps the turtle with his tail in the mud story is a good start...
Yeah, that would be the real problem. To convey the idea into another languages. There might be needed different versions to fill the gaps of each other translations.

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Post by Bert » Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:01 am

William, now that you have had a chance to read some of the Greek Harry Potter, what do you think of it?
Is it suitable for a beginner (me) or does a person have to know Greek quite well to be able to enjoy it?

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Post by annis » Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:38 am

Bert wrote:William, now that you have had a chance to read some of the Greek Harry Potter, what do you think of it?
Is it suitable for a beginner (me) or does a person have to know Greek quite well to be able to enjoy it?
Bert, honestly I've been preoccupied with other things since I got the book. Except for a few sessions of browsing, I've not had serious time with it yet. But it seems like regular, unaltered Greek in the style of Lucian: not too tricky, but not simpified or anything. The translator had to invent a lot of words, so you'll need some confidence in analyzing compounds, instead of finding them in L&S.

But this info is based on the most cursory of glances. I can report more when I've had more time to look at it if you wish.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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