Phaedo 85c 4-6

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jeidsath
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Phaedo 85c 4-6

Post by jeidsath »

ἐμοὶ γὰρ δοκεῖ, ὦ Σώκρατες, περὶ τῶν τοιούτων ἴσως ὥσπερ καὶ σοὶ τὸ μὲν σαφὲς εἰδέναι ἐν τῷ νῦν βίῳ ἢ ἀδύνατον εἶναι ἢ παγχάλεπόν τι, τὸ μέντοι αὖ τὰ λεγόμενα περὶ αὐτῶν μὴ οὐχὶ παντὶ τρόπῳ ἐλέγχειν καὶ μὴ προαφίστασθαι πρὶν ἂν πανταχῇ σκοπῶν ἀπείπῃ τις, πάνυ μαλθακοῦ εἶναι ἀνδρός·

Burnet explains that μὴ οὐχὶ as dependent on μαλθακοῦ εἶναι ἀνδρός, which “implies a negative and therefore takes μή οὐ.”

Radically simplifying in the interest of showing the base construction: ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ < τὸ μὴ οὐχὶ ἐλέγχειν > μαλθακοῦ εἶναι ἀνδρός. It appears to me that not refuting is an act of a cowardly man.

Since εἶναι is not negated, the μή οὐ is surprising, and would be what Burnet is trying to explain by “implies a negative”.

The relevant discussion from Smyth would appear to be 2748 under the heading "μὴ οὐ with the Infinitive depending on Negatived Verbs,” and discussing an exception to the normal rule:
2748. Some expressions denoting repugnance to the moral sense involve a negative idea, and may have the same construction. Thus, ὥστε πᾶσιν αἰσχύνην εἶναι μὴ οὐ συσπουδάζειν so that all were ashamed not (i.e. felt it was not right) to coöperate zealously X. A. 2.3.11. So with αἰσχρόν ἐστι ( = οὐ καλόν ἐστι), δεινόν ἐστι
Smyth mentions explicitly only πᾶσιν αἰσχύνην εἶναι, αἰσχρόν ἐστι, and δεινόν ἐστι, but μαλθακοῦ εἶναι ἀνδρός is obviously the same as the others. See 2748d for the τὸ μὴ οὐ variation from simple μή οὐ.

What, however, is the negative implied in these statements that makes μαλθακοῦ εἶναι ἀνδρός and so on equivalent to a negated verb? Burnet doesn’t say, and Smyth writes “= οὐ καλόν ἐστι” as if that explains something. It does not. We can write down the opposite of any statement, but that doesn’t tell us why these get μή οὐ but others do not.

My guess is that the implied negative concept is actually something like “and you are not a coward” or “and they were not the sort to do shameful things”, both of these examples (Phaedo 85c, and X. An. 2.3.11) being exhortations to the opposite action, not simple statements of actual shame felt from a completed action. But I am away from my library this week and don't have access to any full list of examples involving Smyth 2748 equivalents.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: Phaedo 85c 4-6

Post by Hylander »

LSJ μη ου II.1.b also classifies this as an implied negative. Isn't the answer just that μαλθακου ανδρος is inherently a very negative epithet? LSJ cites Simonides: ανδρα δ'ουκ εστι μη ου κακον εμμεναι.
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jeidsath
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Re: Phaedo 85c 4-6

Post by jeidsath »

Hylander wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2025 10:00 pm LSJ μη ου II.1.b also classifies this as an implied negative. Isn't the answer just that μαλθακου ανδρος is inherently a very negative epithet? LSJ cites Simonides: ανδρα δ'ουκ εστι μη ου κακον εμμεναι.
This doesn't feel like you, Hylander. You confuse the English adjective "negative," which means gloomy or undesirable, in the sense of "a negative statement," with "negate" the verb, used in the sense of "a negated statement" or "to negate his statement", expressing denial or contradiction. "The man is ugly" is a "negative (adj.) statement". "The man is not ugly," is a "negated (verb) statement" and "negates (verb) the earlier statement", while also being a "positive (adj.) statement" and not a "negative (adj.) statement".
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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